Hello, I just wanna know if you get the (50%) deposit per one print product or from the whole projects that you may get from the company or organizations. Thanks.
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it can be structured many ways and it really depends on how you contract the work.
if you're working on individual products and they're on individual contracts, you may get the deposit up front.
if you're working on a much larger project (maybe one that has many individual pieces in it), you can structure a contract differently. as a very rough example, you could ask for, say, a 20-25% deposit up front and then have a payment schedule along the way that pays you when you hit important milestones. say you have 10 printed pieces in a contract. you might get 25% up front and 7.5% when each printed piece is completed (not releasing that product until you get paid).
i had a book that i did that i charged $20k for a couple of years ago. I got a $4000 deposit, then charged additional percentages at different milestones along the way. along the lines of $4000 when all of the photographs were edited and sent for approval, $4000 when the first draft of the book was submitted, $4000 when the files were approved, and $4000 before the final book were released from the printer.
there's no hard rules on how you do this. you need to set the contract up so it protects you from doing any more work "at risk" than necessary. and getting paid in installments along the way is a good way to do that on a longer/larger contract. and using milestones helps the client with a comfort level that they're making payments when you provide them XX amount of work.
You charge $20K for design work only or printing fees is included in it?
Sorry it took me in awhile to respond. I don't have internet connection.
Thanks.
i charged $20k for the design work. it was spread out over 18 months and hundreds of hours. the printing charges for the job were approx $50k. this was not a logo or other smaller job. this was a 600 page book with ~100 hours of photo manipulation alone.
in the end, i probably underestimated, or more accurately, didn't do a very good job of managing scope creep on that job and should have charged closer to $25k.
Remember, just because you estimate a job doesn't mean you stick with that price! Track your hours and let your client know if you're approaching your estimate and then ask for more money, basically reestimate.
Don't get caught in that designer trap of working 2x hard for 1/2 the money. Only close that estimate (make it an invoice) when the job's done.
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
yup. as i mentioned, i got caught in scope creep and didn't do a good job of managing the client. for me, it was an actual fixed price contract, so it wasn't an estimate. but when you do fixed price, you have to stick to the scope of work in order to make it work for you financially, and i didn't do that. I should have done a contract modification for a few things (or at least told them i couldn't do what they were asking under the current scope of work). it was definitely my mistake and it's something i learned from.
now, to be fair, i made plenty of money on the job and still a pretty good rate, but i could have made more per hour. in the end, i was the "nice guy" because i really liked the client and really wanted to do a good product for them. they would not have been able to pay the extra money if i'd have asked, so i wouldn't have been able to negotiate more. i'd just have to have cut back on some of the extra time i put into photo retouching and a couple of other details that did make a difference in the end product. i might have sucked it up anyway even if i'd asked and been shot down. still, as i said, it was a good learning experience. i'd never completely managed a job that big for myself before.
We always have to be mindful of reality when it comes to charging clients more. At least in this case, you got a nice product out of it that you could show off. That's worth a little something. But you're right about needing to apply the breaks when the scope of work threatens to exceed contracted limits.
Once upon a time, I created a "change in scope of work" form (referenced in the contract) that clients have to sign before work can proceed. That's the theory, anyway. In practice, it's awkward to do that, unless you keep up a running communication with the client about how the work is progressing. The changes have to be their "fault,"not because we're working more clumsily than anticipated.
This thread it coming up to the top of our Forum in the nick of time to remind me about all this time-tracking stuff and paperwork.
Mara
yup, there's much to be said for the portfolio piece, not to mention the pride in ownership. and it was really nice working for a client who knew what he wanted and really appreciated that he got it. when you create a hardbound book for a rare book collector, they're interested in all of the details.
Could we see a photo of the book sometime? I'm curious now!
BTW, I meant "apply the brakes," not "breaks." I'll have to crawl off to my private corner of Copy Editor Hell now to flog myself.
Mara
remind me again in a couple of weeks. i'm heading out on vacation friday (YAY BELIZE! time to dive!) for 10 days. but i'll put up a couple of photos I took. it was the 40th reunion yearbook for for the class of 1966 at the naval academy.
Will do. Greg. Bon voyage!
Mara
We always have to be mindful of reality when it comes to charging clients more. At least in this case, you got a nice product out of it that you could show off. That's worth a little something. But you're right about needing to apply the breaks when the scope of work threatens to exceed contracted limits.
Once upon a time, I created a "change in scope of work" form (referenced in the contract) that clients have to sign before work can proceed. That's the theory, anyway. In practice, it's awkward to do that, unless you keep up a running communication with the client about how the work is progressing. The changes have to be their "fault,"not because we're working more clumsily than anticipated.
This thread it coming up to the top of our Forum in the nick of time to remind me about all this time-tracking stuff and paperwork.
Mara
Honey, this is advice I need to have tatooed on the insides of my eyelids or something. I'm a fool for sticking to my original estimates, forgetting that they are ESTIMATES.
I really ned to focus on this, now that business is starting to pick up again. None of us can afford to be giving away our time.
Mara
double post - sorry
Mara
Greg, your system sounds like it has flexibility without being too complicated to be practical.
I've done something similar for longer, more complicated projects. One thing it helps with -- hate to be negative here -- is that it protects you from losing too much on jobs that get killed along the way. If you've been collecting payments at specific and fairly frequent benchmarks, you don't have to go through hell trying to figure out what the client owes you if they should happen to pull the plug on you. The "kill fee" language in my contract is, "Termination fee is equal to payments made up to and including termination date plus balance due and/or Designer’s commission, if any, on third-party expenses." I've only had to invoke that clause a couple of times in 20 or so years, but I was glad I had it to fall back on.
I've done retainer agreements with "bread and butter" clients, too (zz, that would be only for my design work, not covering printing fees, which I get aproved and then bill up front --no out-of-pocket expenses for me until I have them covered).
zz, is your client balking at the 50% deposit? You might want to try something like what Greg suggests: 25% up front, three more "installments" at various points along the way until the job is completed. Do you have a contract? There are some good sources online to get you started if you don't.
Ma
Mara
The client not realy balking at the 50% deposit. ok, I can also try 25% and 3 more installment. I am editing my contract. Thanks
if the client isn't balking at 50%, then take 50% with 3 installments. no need to scale back the downpayment if they're cool with it.
Agreed. Business is all about cash flow. Why restrict it if you've got it?! :)
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
thank u guys, I mean I can also try 25% with 3 installment for larger project and ye depending on the situation. And Oh 50% with 3 installment.. good idea I'm learning with y'all. Thanks. I feel the energy.
Don't change it unless the client is really throwing their toys about it.
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
Can I also give a clients and all future clients the 3 options for payment schedule? 50% deposit w 3 installment, 25% with 3 installment and 50% deposit and the remaining balance is to be paid upon delivery of the completed project.
What do u think?
just pick one. if they balk, you can negotiate.
plus, if you give them those three options, nobody will choose option 1. it makes no sense for them given option 2.
You're being too considerate! Seriously, if you give them the option they are going to choose the least amount up front. Not sure why you are still undecided about this...again, you only get what you negotiate!
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
----
Dirt and Rust
oh okay. yea, you're right. That's the behaviour of client. I should be more strict. hehe.. Thank you.