advice on working part-time for a design firm
pleasebekind (48 points) | Fri, 2009-04-24 08:29Hi guys, I hope you could help me out on this one. I'm a freelance graphic designer, and a design firm is currently asking me if I want to work with them on a part-time, home-based arrangement. I am thinking of accepting it.
Is this a wise move? Right now, I'm relatively doing okay as far as freelancing goes, because what I earn covers the bills. I just don't have enough though at the end of the day to spend for myself - I rarely go out and meet with friends because I'm short on cash, in the sense that I catch myself hesitating to spend what I have because I can just use that to pay the bills, you know? I haven't bought a book in months or watched a movie, so let's just say I've let some things slide. This is why I am considering the part-time job: I'm thinking that if I have extra income flowing in that's steady (I'm assuming salary will be given promptly every 15th and 30th in the month), I wouldn't be as uptight.
Help me out.
1) What are your thoughts on this?
2) What do you think are some important questions that I should ask before I accept the job? I want to make sure that I have thought of all the possible issues before I say yes or anything.
I would really appreciate some feedback. My thanks in advance :)
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Extra money and experience. I could only imagine that working for an ad firm would give a great deal of credibility to the clients you freelance for.
However, I too would like to see some answers for question 2. I'm going on a lunch to meet some local ad firm guys today, so hopefully I might find myself in a position like yours.
Good luck.
'I am a patient boy, I wait, I wait, I wait, I wait'
I am curious as to how the work flow would be like -- I am thinking maybe it'll be similar to working with a long-time and steady client? Meaning constant work and communication with the same person, and also building a long-term relationship with them.
But also do you suppose the workload would be more demanding and stressful?
On one hand I am excited because working with other people would mean me learning a lot of stuff than just going at it all alone and teaching myself via practice and the internet. On the other hand I have apprehensions -- I don't want this to take over what I do now and take most of my attention; I still put a lot of value in having my own time, etc.
Let me know how your meeting went and good luck, too!
My brother-in-law in head web developer for a really cool firm in Cincinnati. Not that they're necessarily hiring but he was giving me a lot of good advice and I got to hang around him and his team for the afternoon. Great way to get started networking, I really want to work for an ad/design firm.
'I am a patient boy, I wait, I wait, I wait, I wait'
Nice Fugazi quote, mate!
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
That's alright though, it's all time to learn.
'I am a patient boy, I wait, I wait, I wait, I wait'
some thoughts on questions.
1) how many hours a week? guaranteed hours or will it be flexible on their part? a guaranteed minimum of hours? if they want more than usual, will you have the option to say you can't w/o repercussions if it impacts your other work (i.e., if you have other deadlines and suddenly they need you to work 40 hour that week)?
2) ask about workflow. how will they give you work, how will you submit? how will they review things with you and give you markups? who will you be working for? will you have client contact?
3) how will they pay you? like a part-time employee with regular paychecks? direct deposit? or will you be submitting invoices as a contractor and get paid as accounts payable? set up a regular schedule with them if so. and how do they track your time?
Thanks for these. Is it also okay to ask if I can keep the rights to any work that I might do, and include them in my portfolio? I don't know the technicalities with regards to ownership of the work -- does everything I do become their property because I'm going to be an employee, even if just part-time?
very unlikely you would keep rights to the work. the work you're going to be doing is most likely classified as "work for hire," which means they maintain the copyright. but i'm sure they'd be fine to let you put them in your portfolio. it's always good to ask and have it out on the table.
now, that was something i was curious about. are you going to be an actual employee or a contractor? i've worked for a number of studios when i was freelancing and was always a contractor and essentially they'd call me when they needed someone for a few days (or a few weeks). we'd agree on approx how long and about how many hours a week, but nothing was guaranteed (on either side). and i'd bill them weekly based on the timesheet i filled out for them. being an employee is different than that, in many ways.
You know what's funny, that's what I am thinking about now. I was initially told that they would like to hire me on a part-time basis, and that I can work at home. No need for me to come in the office or meetings, just when needed in particular. My pay is going to be handed out bimonthly, and I need to work a minimum number of hours every day. That sounds like being hired as an employee, right? But as per the documents, they're referring to me as an "independent contractor" which to me is a different thing.
what do you reckon?
Don't expect any benefits.
'I am a patient boy, I wait, I wait, I wait, I wait'
Don't let them be confused. You'd be an independent contractor. They can't have it both ways. It sounds like they are trying to get out of paying benefits to you.
Remember, since it's less than 70-80% of your income (varies by state) then it's not a job, it's a contract and you are not their employee. That means you need to charge a bit more to cover your costs (insurance, equipment, etc.)
Draw up a contract stating your hourly rate and hours to be worked (negotiate overage hours so it's clear you aren't just on call beyond the 20 hours without some additional fees; you have other work going on!) and make sure ownership of your work is clearly determined. I'd imagine the firm you're working for wants full ownership of all work you perform for them.
Then you've basically got 20hours of your week filled. Pretty sweet deal!
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
You bucking for 4000 points or what? ;)
Good to see you back at CB, kiwusa!
3dog
"Art -- the one achievement of Man which has made the long trip up from all fours seem well advised." - James Thurber
I just noticed the My points thing in the left side bar. What are points, anyway?
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
Not sure...Ivan would need to answer that one.
"Art -- the one achievement of Man which has made the long trip up from all fours seem well advised." - James Thurber
my confusion right now stems from the fact that they're using terms like "salary" and have confidentiality and non-competition clauses, as well as transfer of rights with the deliverables and the like. this is fine with me if I am to be hired as an employee.
however, the term being used in the whole contract is "independent contractor" which to me is a different thing. if I am an independent contractor then I should be the one giving them a contract and stating my own conditions, right?
what they say verbally isn't as important as what's in the contract. i think they're using the word "salary" incorrectly, as opposed to saying "rate."
the contract is the one that matters and you're going to be a contractor.
sometimes contractors give contracts to the employer first, sometimes employers give the contract to the contractor. many agencies/studios have standard contracts for freelancers (smart ones do). read over it, have a lawyer look at it with you if you're not comfortable doing that alone. if there are clauses you don't like or are uncomfortable with, talk to them about those clauses. contracts are negotiable until signed. and even then, they can be changed with agreement by both parties. if you have conditions to working for them, put them on the table and talk about them. negotiate what you need into the contract.
it's not comfortable for most people (me included), but that's part of working as a contractor for an agency/studio, just like it is when you negotiate directly with a client. essentially the agency is your client and you have to work with them to come up with something that works for both of you.
the word "salary", and other employment-related words were all over the contract. they had a lot of restrictions, one especially about requiring me to work for a minimum number of hours, and to inform them at all times where i'll be and if i'll leave my house. I told them that they got the it all wrong, and that they were really hiring me as an employee and not as an independent contractor. but they disagreed, so I also said that if they wanted to hire me as a contractor, they've got to let me state my own terms and arrangement. And guess what, they didn't want me to.
This deal smells bad to me. They can't require you to be at home for a certain number of hours! Why don't they just have you come into their office for 20 hours a week as a part time employee?
I'd just say no to them if they are unwilling to see you as an independent contractor. However, find out if they are simply worried about their intellectual property. In that case you can sign non disclosures and non competes as well as explicitly state that any work you do for them is owned by them.
Have they been burned before by not defining ownership of artwork by outside artists?
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
That's what I said -- that with all these restrictions I might as well be an employee. I think they didn't want to give me benefits hence the contractor bit. There were non compete documents included and I didn't have a problem with that -- I just wanted to be able to exercise the freedom that is rightly mine if I'm to work independently. However, the more we talk the less I'm liking it. They said I have until next week to think about it but should refrain letting my lawyer see it until then? That's just outright weird to me.
refrain from letting a lawyer review a contract? run away. can't imagine a stronger warning sign than that.
Um yeah, that's fishy indeed! Do not agree to this deal.
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
As predicted, I declined the offer as politely as I could. I gave them an option on my terms but they didn't want to take it, so I just declined their offer. Anyway, thanks everyone for your advice :)
Good for you. You don't need scuzzball clients like that anyway.
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
also I think there's a pretty big difference b/w an employee versus an independent contractor with regards to Form W-2 or 1099.
Whatever you choose, you're the one who has to be comfortable with your decision. If you feel it might hamper alternate future freelance opportunities then don't do it.
Or, if you say to yourself, 'Hey, that's steady cash flow coming in during a global recession...seize the day.'
Weigh everything. Write a pro con list and see where you land.
Good luck.
3dog.
"Art -- the one achievement of Man which has made the long trip up from all fours seem well advised." - James Thurber
that's what I'm currently debating about. but my more pressing concern right now is to clear up whether i'm an independent contractor or an employee. their contract has so much power and control over me, it's scary.
If this employer is, say, less than 70% of your income and you will be working from home, and they aren't offering benefits, then most likely you are not an employee but an independent contractor.
As such, you can structure it any way you like. You are even responsible for paying your own taxes. As a contractor, you can set an hourly rate or by project. In this case I'd say hourly, and definitely jack it up a bit because you aren't getting benefits and you have costs to consider; even turning down other work is a cost!
Remember, you only get what you negotiate. Don't be afraid to take your contract, and theirs, to a lawyer to have them both analysed, and to have them advise you on this situation. Don't be so blinded by this situation that you can act rationally. If the situation isn't right, walk away.
If you have an hourly agreement with them, state it as such, but definitely don't just sign their contract. They can't claim they are paying you a "salary" when you aren't an employee.
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
----
Dirt and Rust
if the contract says "independent contractor" on it, there's nothing to clear up. that's what they're offering you. you need to sit down with them and make sure what they're telling you verbally matches up with the contract they're offering you. as an employee (even part-time), i've never had to sign a contract. i've signed non-compete agreements and confidentiality agreements, but never a full contract. i've only seen those as a contractor.
Also, if you do happen to land too much work than you can handle, you can always hire work out to another freelancer that you're comfortable working with.
"Art -- the one achievement of Man which has made the long trip up from all fours seem well advised." - James Thurber
yeah, I've done that before. thanks for the advice! I'm going to make my pro & con list tonight :)
Accept it and try. See if you like it you can always quit.
Yeah I would definitely accept if it won't be too difficult for me to drop it or say no when the time comes.
It sounds to me as if the people recruiting you are confused about some of their terminology, and perhaps about the whole thing. That doesn't necessarily spell disaster; maybe they're just artists out of their depth. It would be better though, if they could have some representative of their company who is more HR or legally minded talk to you about the contract and what they expect of you. If they don't have someone like that on staff, and if they're discouraging you from having legal advice of your own, then I'd say this is a seat-of-the-pants operation that might be very creative, but ultimately a nightmare to work for. Or both!
I am frankly horrified by the business of their expecting you to tell them where you are at every moment of the workday. Are they going to fit you with one of those house-arrest ankle things? Jeez. Isn't having a cell phone on you at all times good enough? Maybe that's all they meant. I hope so.
SOmething I haven't seen in this thread yet, though I admit I haven't read every post carefully, is what the deal is with continuing to do freelance work. Some agencies forbid it if they consider you an employee. In any case, I agree it's unlikely you'll carry away rights to anything you design on their time. You'll be lucky if they let you include in your portfolio any pieces for which you can claim 100% design credit -- and in an agency, that's a little hard to pull off. The Art Director will sometimes capture all the credit, or you'll have been working as a team member with limited authority, if any, over final designs.
It's an awfully good "education," though, one way or another. If you can afford the risk, I'd say to tighten up the contractual terms and go for it.
Mara