Couple general board questions

That's an excellent point, and unfortunately it's a unique problem due to the very nature of the critique section here.

When it comes to a logo for a newbies design company, sure, we're helping them out, but are we really doing them a favour? It's always harder to design for yourself but what happens if that person gets a contract then needs more help? Should I be getting compensation for basically a service I'd be charging someone else?

Is that designer actually going to learn anything if someone is always there to hold their hand through their design career? If they don't come here, can't they just go see their designer friends or teachers anyways?

And are these even designers asking for help or clients who just want to save a bit of cash by designing their own logo then getting a professionals advice? Good question. I think a lot of them are just clients looking to save a buck. Although I do understand that in a business if you can save money and cut costs, you'll do it, but there is a moral line that shouldn't be crossed, and going to a forum asking for a critique pretending to be a designer is dishonest, but something that can not be avoided.

My 2 cents: Help out with what they have, you get something that could drastically change their design for something completely different and much better, keep it to yourself. if you come with a brief saying the client wants a duck in their logo for a pet store, focus on the duck, don't suggest, say, a cat for example. It's up to the designer and the client to come up with a better concept. You just help them with the concept you are presented. It's a catch 22 really.

It brings me to an interesting example: You're a student in school, you have a teacher in a design class who freelances at the same time. Your next project that he gives you is amazingly similar to one he has currently been hired to do. 25 students work on his project, coming up with concepts, he chooses the best one out of at least 100 for himself, and gets paid for the job. Meanwhile he just turned down your concept saying that it just wouldn't work for this project.

Anyways, I'm going off on all kinds of tangeants here but your post has really made me think alot! Sorry for being so longwinded!

Thanks for being "longwinded" because I think this angle should be discussed fully and completely. We're obviously thinking along the same lines. I've been trying to give the student types a nudge in the right direction without getting too specific, because they need to learn how to resolve problems on their own if they want to make a living in the field. Sometimes you have to chase down even the bad ideas because it will help you recognize when you're on the wrong track for future projects. I also believe every artist owes a certain debt to the field for all the people who helped them along the way. None of us would be where we are if we didn't get some advice and tutoring in the early stages. So the students are not really a problem. Your example is interesting too because back in my college days we caught one of our professors with some student art in his portfolio. It was unclear whether or not he was using it to get paying jobs (because he was still active outside of school) - but still the question remains... what was it doing in his portfolio?

Back on point, there was one critique last week where the guy seemed to be asking for a little too much help imo. I'm not concerned with pointing him in the right direction or telling him why his ideas aren't working, but then I had a moment of pure inspiration and the resolution to his problem was just so obvious. Now - do I give him everything - solve his problem and hand over a nice piece of art for nothing? My thinking is the same as yours - I'm keeping that one to myself. Don't see how that would help anyone looking for "advice". At that point you've gone beyond advice and you're actually working for them (whether you get paid or not).

Anyway - as always - jmho. I'd like to hear others' views on this too.

My philosophy on the zen of wen:

Smile.
Pass it on.

I understand what you're saying, about how most of us charge our clients for what we're giving out here for free. So, yes, it's tough to comment in the critique section. But my clientele are generally not connected to the type of client product/service that I'm critiquing on. And...if I ever do obtain a client in a similar business I will no longer comment on that type of work.

But, if I'm in a position to lend a comment--take it or leave it--then I will do so to lighten the load of another human being.

Cheers.
3dog

Another thing I'd like to add:

Sometimes when I'm having a brain cramp over one of my own design projects, I find that by commenting and studying others' work-throughs on their own design/marketing challenges helps me make it through mine, generally with a better output.

Working within this online blog community has helped me to grow as a designer, and what I've learned here has saved me COUNTLESS months of research and techniquing time. That alone pays my consulting bills.

PLUS IT'S FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like you're talking about conflict of interest - which is another valid point as well. That will never be a problem for me because of the nature of my business. And I'm not worried about commenting on work, so much as actually doing their work for them. For instance, with the Garden Park thing you tossed together a quick idea for the guy using the art he posted. Okay - fine - he was already on that path anyway, you were just helping him along. But let's say instead you thought up an entirely new idea that was much better than anything he had shown. Would you then offer up this entirely new idea in the same manner? That's my question.

BTW, when it comes to consulting in the real world - I hardly ever charge for that.

I know im new here but i feel i need to add my thoughts,
I own my own business in england and have been in and out of design and illustration for many years, I work mainly by myself and have got rather caught up with my style and way of looking at things. I needed an area where i could show case my ideas to like minded people who were not afraid to bite chunks out of it ( Not friends or family who always seem to say "thats great" ) So i stumbled across you guys and immediately new that i needed to get involved.
I have posted ideas and have welcomed your advice, i have enough savvy to take the criticism and do something about it.
I feel that to critique others i needed to have my bits out there to be critiqued also, fair is fair.

One thing i have found is that by adding my two cents to an idea i feel good, i dont expect anything in return except that when i offer up my work someone gives me their honest opinion.
I would never ask someone to do my work or give me theirs but i love having this site where i can share and share alike.

I dont think you should be handing out your sketches, but knowledge and experience can be shown and taught, even one line of constructive criticism can help and bring a design on leaps and bounds.

If you feel that you are urging to scan your sketch pad and post it all over the place then stop, take a lean back and give yourself a pat on the back, we all have ideas that are better than the other guy but keep sat on them cause you never know when their c/m will walk through your door!!

probably does not make much sense, sorry

Thanks guys

honestly, in general i say to each his own as far as how far you want to go between advice and concept. if someone is asking for help and you get that burst of light that gives you a great idea and you want to share it, that's great. if you want to hold onto it for yourself, i see no problem with that either.

the only place i see it being a real issue is when someone is trolling for concepts and isn't actually working toward one. i don't think it helps that person become a better designer if they're just given concepts.

but if we have a good discussion going on and it's going different directions and the original designer is participating, i think they're learning or developing as part of the process and i don't think you're hurting their development by giving them a stronger push in a specific direction.

An example of someone who probably wasn't even a designer and just came here for free help would be that Sync Brains fellow. In my eyes we basically screwed his designer over. The man was hired to do a job, then the client signed up and logged in to get us to finish it off.

Is it something that can be avoided? No. Just like companies who ask for samples done before hiring or coming in for a day to see how things click between you and the rest of the team these are things we need to make judgement calls on.

One thing I'd like to see more of is interaction and people actually listening to critiques. How many times have the words " Pull out a sketchbook" been uttered? Or "Create the logo in black and white first"? Sometimes it just feels like talking to a brick wall. If people aren't taking the time to read and listen to their peers who are taking time out of their day to help out, why the heck should we even help at all?

Well, like 3dog says, cause it's fun! It helps our own creative juices to flow and we're helping a noob out. But where does our tutelage end and the new designers responsibility to his client begin? Is it fair that he should come up with (sometimes) a half ass idea and let everyone here flesh it out?

Robbies right, this is a great community where we can come and "have our bits out there" to get advice. There are going to be people taking advantage, people with an idea who just want their egos stroked and others who are steadfast on selling us an idea that doesn't work. Hell, come to think of it, it's just like school, minus the drunken karaoke parties the day before an exam!

There are no victims, only volunteers. ;)

I think it's as simple as using your judgement. "Should I?" "Shouldn't I?". If I feel like what I'm offering might be taken advantage of in a way that I don't like, then I'll keep my mouth shut (or my fingers off the keyboard). At the same time, there are times I don't mind offering assistance, even if I'm sure someone may profit off of it.

No one's forcing me to participate in the critiques section. (Which I'm sure is obvious because I hardly post there at all.)

Interesting. Thanks for all the input.

Now...

Does anyone know how to change a handle? The nom de plume?

Leaky It was me who actually did that SyncBrains logo, and initially we (that guy who posted it and me) were working together. But I pulled back after he posted the logo here without even asking me.