Do you ever show the client a work-in-progress?
onegirlcreative (1090 pencils) | Tue, 2010-12-14 15:30
I know it has been a while since I have posted here, but I'm at a loss. I recently obtained a new client for a logo design project and to be honest, this client has quickly become a big PITA!
He is emailing me constantly wanting to see a work-in-progress and reminds me how he is used to seeing projects during their "rough stage."
I finally send him the graphics without the typographical treatments just to basically shut him up, and of course, without seeing the full picture of my envision, he quickly dismisses my sketches as "clipart." Let me tell you, this is not something I want, nor need to hear at this stage.
I am so frustrated that I am quickly reminded why I no longer accept or prefer logo design projects any longer. But since I have been unemployed for almost a year now, I figured why not. Time to get back in the game.
Well, I don't know about you all, but I am hating my field at this point in my life. Maybe I'm at an all time low, I have no idea, but dealing with a douchebag like this makes me want to go with my gut and never look back again.
Oh, and have I mentioned that he has paid me up front via PayPal just under a week ago and already wants the FINAL logo to be completed tomorrow? WTF???
Am I the only idiot designer out there who lets the client dictate the deadline when it's clearly a rush job. He never mentioned this beforehand, but now assumes and insists that it be finished tomorrow.
I am so done with this field....
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"I am not sick. I am broken. But I am happy as long as I can paint." ~ Frida Kahlo
Commenting on this Forum topic is closed.
Suzanne,
Sounds like you're done, or am I missing something? :)
Not to trivialize, but been there, done that. Sounds like a frank discussion with the client is in order. Maybe he isn't too happy either, so it may not be a good fit for either of you. Don't sweat it. It happens to all of us.
Just talk to the guy. If he wants to be an ass, send him to the competition.
Drive thy business or it will drive thee.
– Benjamin Franklin
Terrell Thornhill
e-zign Design Group
Hey Terry! Been a long time.
Thanks for your input. You're right—I am done! Since my last job as a designer working for a tyrant, I have lost any passion I once had as a graphic designer. It's so sad because I have been in the field for over 7+ years and I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Now, not so much.
I have grown to loathe my field and even though I was reluctant to accept this latest job, I did knowing full well my heart would possibly not be into it 100%, and because we needed the $$$.
I am trying my very best to get this guy's logo off to him in a timely manner so he can have it for his meeting tomorrow evening. But a part of me feels that rushing through this for fear of pressure from the client is going to greatly decrease the integrity and compromise the overall look of the logo. Overall, at the end of the day, I guess if he's happy, then my job is successful.
Unfortunately in the meantime, I must endure his unrealistic expectations.
I have always been such a wimp when it comes to my clients. I let them walk all over me, which is such a disadvantage for me trying to do freelance work. I think for the most part, this is why I have turned to selling my fine/pop art instead. It's MY terms and you buy what I have created, AFTER I have created it.
Thanks again for your input, Terry.
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"I am not sick. I am broken. But I am happy as long as I can paint." ~ Frida Kahlo
www.onegirlcreative.com
its just work. you accepted his money. give him what he wants and stop crying.
every project wont be award-winning and every project wont be fun. id say that about 70% of my work is what i call "utility work" and that's usually for clients with little if any taste and often marginal intelligence. you can talk until you're blue in the face. but they just aren't capable of "getting it" so you just do what they ask you to and divorce yourself from it emotionally.
my motto is "it's a meal. not a marriage"
but what these clients do have is considerable money. and its their projects that fund my ability to take the remaining 30% of projects that i truly enjoy.
you've been here before lamenting over a bad boss or unpleasant work environment.
sounds to me that you may not be cut out for this kind of work. maybe you should consider fine art or go join a convent or something. where you wont have to deal with the drudgery of day to day life as a designer.
This was a good read and I suffer from the same thing. I had my teacher/Creative Director slap me around a bit to show me how it REALLY is out there. I pour my heart out on each project but the truth is pick up the fun ones on the side and stay up til 3 a.m. ;)
www.ucomefind.me
Thanks for sharing your experience as well. And so eloquently, I might add. It makes me feel a lot better knowing that I am not alone with my frustrations (even though I already knew this, but it's good to hear it again, nevertheless). ;)
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"I am not sick. I am broken. But I am happy as long as I can paint." ~ Frida Kahlo
www.onegirlcreative.com
Also, not to take away from my frustration with this particular client, the real reason I submitted this thread was to truly inquire about whether or not, as a freelance designer, do you frequently show your client a work-in-progress, or do you wait until the proof stage?
Thanks!
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"I am not sick. I am broken. But I am happy as long as I can paint." ~ Frida Kahlo
www.onegirlcreative.com
To answer your question about showing premature designs, in-short, "No."
I will offer designs in respectable presentation style when they are ready.
If they want to see preliminary sketches, that's what I send them; An actual, pencil sketch.
The closest I come to allowing clients to view work in preliminary stages, is there are a few long-term clients that I'll allow to come by and sit next to me while I work on their project.
Terrell Thornhill
e-zign Design Group
There was a time when I did show the client my work in progress. Then I came to realize it just made the job harder and less satisfying - exactly the sentiments you're expressing now. It creates more client face time - more meetings, more people, more approvals, yada... the job grows, but the paycheck doesn't. So one day I just put the foot down - because the old saying is true... they can't take advantage of you unless you let them. Finish this job - just make the guy happy. Then next time around spell everything out in the original agreement... You want a logo? I'll give you X number of ideas to proof. Pick one and I'll polish it up. That's it. Every idea or meeting or approval beyond that point will be charged by the hour (or however you charge). Make sure you're getting paid on a regular basis if that happens too - if they don't like the first logo options - you need to get a check before you offer up new ideas. Keep the money flowing along with the work. It's not easy - granted - but it has to happen. So if he asks for more - you have to ask for more as well (which often makes them reconsider the original ideas, btw).
And take wgzn's advice. Don't fall in love with every project. Sometimes I worry that board members are taking their work too seriously - we're NOT fine artists. We're graphic artists. We're PAID to create stuff - we don't have to love everything - we have to be professionals and create art that works for the job at hand. Sometimes that means swallowing your ego and not being petulant or apprehensive over the perceived aesthetic failure of the project. Savor the artistic victories (you'll have PLENTY in your career), but don't sweat it when someone demands garbage. After all - it's their money. Create pop art in your spare time and fall in love with those projects. You'll also find that - down the road - some of the graphics work you thought was not too impressive will age very well. An eye-opening experience for me was walking into a client's office I hadn't heard from in 10 years and seeing a lot of my stuff framed on his wall. Surprise, surprise - that direct mail piece looked pretty sweet blown up to poster size. A once forgotten piece is now hanging in my office too.
Thank you so much!!! Your post has made me feel so much better and you're right, I will indeed put my foot down next time he 'demands' to see rough sketches and/or a work-in-progress, as well as future clients. I refuse to allow this client and others walk all over me. I have done that far too long in my career, and I don't need it now. I suppose all this time it has been my fault for allowing this behavior, but not anymore. It's bad enough when you work for an employer and you have them breathing down your neck—hey, they're paying you a salary, therefore if they want to watch every move you make, I suppose that's their right.
In short, thank you so much for your detailed response. Much appreciated!
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"I am not sick. I am broken. But I am happy as long as I can paint." ~ Frida Kahlo
www.onegirlcreative.com
there always have been, and always will be micro-managers and CYO (cover your ass) coworkers. the sooner you learn to either deal with or ignore them. the better off youre going to be : )
You're always welcome. Next time spell everything out up front - the number of proofs, the due dates (for the proofs, final piece AND THE MONEY). They'll respect you as a business person and they'll stick to the plan if they know breaking the rules is the ONLY way the price increases.
And - most importantly - don't be afraid to walk away from a project either. Money isn't everything - it just makes everything a little easier. Your sanity is priority one - this job will kill you if you let it. :)
"don't be afraid to walk away either."
damn fine point art!
one of the most comforting feelings is to have the foresight to see that a situation is likely to be unpleasant and have the confidence to simply say. "i'm sorry. i'm not going to be able to accept this project"
"do you frequently show your client a work-in-progress, or do you wait until the proof stage?"
its depends: on the client, on the timeframe, on the PRICE.
i approach each project as its own entity. and each project has its own set of variables, requirements and expectations.
you need to relax. be more flexible and loosen your emotional attachment to your work.
being personally involved is a good thing. but i think youre going too far.
AGREED!!!!
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"I am not sick. I am broken. But I am happy as long as I can paint." ~ Frida Kahlo
www.onegirlcreative.com
Hi all
Thx for the post, because it was my problem yesterday evening, and that i've tried to solve without help ) : yes to let the client see the work in progress, and then he suddenly becomes an artist ! furthermore if that client is your Boss, cose i'm not a freelancer for now ! and having it on your back everyday saying :
i want the best by the end of the day that the brief.
- a funny thing : so while describing the logo i told him that squares sometime dont fit with curves so to keep it right and smooth for example, well three days later working on a presentation she came and told me the thing i told her 3 day ago to commen the work in order to say i don't like it ! so ... from that time i kept my mouth shut .
back to the subject thanks to Dr. d rector, for his very experienced and psychological answer :D
i just want to add, a question how to present the final proposition to the client; i made a point with my self not more than four logos, after carefully choose them, and four colour theme ( color + grey - warm/complementary contrast - dark / light color ). in a simple presentation to keep the eyes on the logo.
is it enough or i can push it to 6 for example ? or even more should i rush the four, and let them give comments by themeselves ( i hate this ): ) !!! but it works
so here our dearly and wordefull job as designer and our way to see what others can't ;)
yeah the price is just to suffer !
good luck All (exuse my english )
:::I did it with paint ! i swear:::
Glad to offer any advice that helps.
Generally when it comes to logos, my standard deal is 3 or 4 ideas for proofing. I tell the client it will most likely be 3 ideas, but if I come up with a 4th idea that works - I'll throw that one in too. This way they know to expect 3 - not 4. If they want more than that, I explain to them it's really just a waste of time and money. The first two ideas are usually the ones where lightning has struck - the clever ideas that work. Beyond that you're really just cranking stuff out to fill their quota. They always understand that angle - and in my experience - no one has ever chosen the 3rd or 4th idea anyway. Never. I tell the client that too. I have no rules for color - just use whatever works (usually 3 colors is the max for me). But if they want specific colors (or they want to adjust the colors I pick) I'm open to that. I'll try to talk them out of any ridiculous ideas that will affect their business or might lead to expensive printing/production costs down the road. But it's their logo - they're the ones who have to live with it - so you want them to be happy.
Somewhat interesting related item - when I was still showing work in progress to clients, I once showed a guy about 25 rough ideas for a logo and let him pick and choose his way thru all of them. We sat there eating bagels and drinking coffee with his associate fora bout 2 hours discussing all the different ideas and how they work. He still picked the 1st one I created, and matched it to the type from my 2nd choice (which was unexpected - but actually worked). Anyway, years later he asked me to create another logo for a different business. I only showed him 4 options that time and first he said "Is that all you brought?" So I replied "Do you need more?" He looked at them again and said - "No - I like this one" and picked the 1st option again.
lucky you! my clients nearly always choose the last and my least favorite of what i show them.
: (
Another really good reason to limit their options! :)
all the more reason not to show them anything you don't think is worthwhile.
only show the best work (just like your portfolio). unless you contractually promise 3-4, you don't necessarily have to show them 3-4. and i'd never promise more than that.
i think this is one of the big downsides of showing work in progress. if you don't think it's ready for the client, if it doesn't really communicate your concept, they're unlikely to get it and they'll be unhappy. and even if you work it out, they'll have a negative view of it from the first impression.
setting schedules and being really good about meeting them on your end makes this easier. if you give them something early, bonus. if not, they get it when you committed ot.
i agree. i never show the client more than 4 logo samples when creating the logo design. i learned this while in school actually when one of the speakers/guests (who was a highly experienced and talented designer herself) insisted on doing this. not only that, she said she never even shows the client colors during this stage because it clouds their judgment of what the actual logo will look like if ever needed to be printed in black & white format. since then, i have done this myself unless the client specifically recommends a color option.
UPDATE!
last night at about 9 p.m. my client sends me this rather abrupt nasty email saying that basically implying that there seems to be a several hour email delay when communicating with him and to send him all reports and ETA on the revisions (he liked one of the samples i submitted to him during the first round).
here was my reply to his email:
No xxx, no email delays but a family life. I work from home, therefore my hours are the same as though I work from an office. I have a husband and a daughter that I spend time with. Therefore I will not be sending you progress reports but I will be sending you the revisions tomorrow as promised. If you prefer I send you progress reports and insist that I send you an update of every minute of this project, then I am more than happy to send you another invoice for my time. Because my time is valuable, and what I have quoted you for is a straight forward logo design project with 3 revisions—not constant updates and works-in-progress. I will not be doing that again.
Perhaps in the future you should hire a graphic designer locally so you can show up at their office to see the work to ensure that progress is being done.
If you did not trust me and my judgement as well as my talent, then perhaps you shouldn't have hired me. Especially considering we are doing this strictly via email.
However, you have hired me to do a job and that's what I am doing. I have not gone against this job that you have hired me for.
Already this email has taken me away from my family and from decorating our Xmas tree.
Have a good evening and you will receive the revisions tomorrow morning. Nothing more.
Suzanne
his response to that email was not what i expected. he was very understanding and basically said that he hired me because he felt from my portfolio/website that i was a talented designer and still believes this to be true.
in short, he still wishes to hire me in the future to evolve this business we're designing the logo for and at that point, he would pay me twice as much so i can submit progress reports to him to let him know where i'm at, etc. with the design.
either way, i'm happy with how he responded and was nervous that he was going to fire me right then and there. but i think a huge disadvantage of working freelance are the hours. people assume that you are in front of your computer 24/7 (which for me is mostly true, but not all design stuff), and of course can work on their projects at all hours of the evening.
it got so bad with a client once, that i finally had to tell them that they need to treat me as though i am working in a regular office and not from home, and to not contact me after those hours—just like a designer in an agency where you cannot contact them outside of their office hours. the same should hold true for freelancers. i once had a client call me at 10:00 at night when my daughter was 5 years old because she was frantic about the changes.
but that's a whole different story for a whole different thread.
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"I am not sick. I am broken. But I am happy as long as I can paint." ~ Frida Kahlo
www.onegirlcreative.com
Wow. Surprised he didn't fire you. But sometimes you don't know the client until something like this happens. It sounds like he might not have realized he was putting that much pressure on you. Now that you've had your little moment he might turn into a really good client that's easy to work with. Good for you though - glad you set things straight.
The hours can be kind of tricky working from home. The way I handle that is by telling clients I'm willing to work late and sometimes on weekends - but that's strictly my choice. If they insist the project could incur a rush charge just like a regular agency or production house - 2x or 3x the regular rate depending on the situation. What really makes the home situation hard is a lot of other people are also working from home and it seems like nobody has regular hours anymore - so they might not even realize they're intruding on your life because they're used to working strange hours too. One of my best clients was trying to get me to move into his townhouse community! Can you imagine? He would have been knocking on my door at 3am asking for revisions!
BTW, only one of my clients knows where I live - for that very reason. I don't want them showing up unannounced. :)
Anyway - glad the story had a happy ending.
believe me, i am just as surprised as you are that he didn't fire me. but after his curt emails one after the other, i finally had to put my foot down. even my husband was getting pissed because at this point, it was 9:00 at night and he and my daughter were wondering why i wasn't upstairs helping them decorate our tree, but downstairs on the computer replying to emails. LOL
either way, it worked out wonderfully. i submitted the revisions this morning at 8 a.m. and he already chose a final. it was much simpler than i had anticipated. overall, i think he's thrilled and happy with the logo and so far, since i sent him that email, his tone has changed significantly.
i also wonder (and i truly hate to say this as well as believe it) that because i'm a woman, he felt he could pressure me and take advantage. i hope i'm wrong and i will most likely never know for certain, but it's just a hunch that i have. i find that this is often the case when i'm dealing with clients. perhaps it's me.
anyway, thank you for your suggestions and advice. this has definitely been a learning experience and we'll see if he's willing to "pay me twice as much" in the future for other projects.
only time will tell....
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"I am not sick. I am broken. But I am happy as long as I can paint." ~ Frida Kahlo
www.onegirlcreative.com
"all the more reason not to show them anything you don't think is worthwhile"
i didnt say it wasnt worthwhile. just my least favorite...
Thanks for answering i was afraid i've done much :)
going to keep the four for now an let the others for after; even after the job i keep findin ideas :s and it's not professional ! and also Dr you work in intelligent way and more efficient that let u produce quickly with less efforts u've catch the point ;)
As u said ridiculous, and they got to live with it, as long as they are happy and i get my job done.
i've made 20 logos too, recently for a global agency that didn't know what they want !first i told them it has to be as simple as strong and it's typographie.
they say no we want a mascotte ! yeah , i found it 3 weeks later they were over satisfied, 2 weeks later they came... so we think about it , and we found it's a bit childsh don't u think so ! image a black cloud over my head and me saying gently 'that's what i told u' ....
in fact It's not the work the problem but i didn't direct them at first ! giving others the full control, somehow u have to a commercial and play on words more than that u should planifie to lead them not let them lead u, by saying the minimum and let them say the maximum , as exemple asking indirect question :
' So u told me last time u like blue right ?'
and whether it's yes or no i like green :D
so I've sent the propositions and waiting for the boss response tomorrow ! what wil it be ?
haha like that suspense xD
Ps : wgzn ! that's what i've been told : the last thing is the best ( see it as a warming like before a match.the results comes a the of the 90th min not at the starting whistle ) . so i started by showing the last thing i made that all !
Good luck everyone :)
:::I did it with paint ! i swear:::
I have some beta-testers among my customers. That´s quite good to see if you can improve your work with some features.
I too have had my share of clients like this, I now lay down the rules and get them to sign a contract to say that they understand the terms of the project. Thought you'd find this amusing... http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell
Cheers
NO!
http://stevefakeballmer.wordpress.com/
I am not Steve Ballmer pretending not to be me!
Definetely no, the client may get a bad impression with the unfinished work.
Cheers,
Bicadon - lipoaspiração
The hours can be kind of tricky working from home. The way I handle that is by telling clients I'm willing to work late and sometimes on weekends - but that's strictly my choice
Acai Max Cleanse
you can talk until you're blue in the face. but they just aren't capable of "getting it" so you just do what they ask you to and divorce yourself from it emotionally.
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i think this is one of the big downsides of showing work in progress. if you don't think it's ready for the client, if it doesn't really communicate your concept, they're unlikely to get it and they'll be unhappy. and even if you work it out, they'll have a negative view of it from the first impression
Beezid
I am trying my very best to get this guy's logo off to him in a timely manner so he can have it
tattoo sales
Oh, it's almost normal! A lot of customers don't give value at your work.
So, an idea Could Be:
always send an order to the customer, and in the order your rules. This order has sent you back to be Confirmed. So you have one more help!
so you have more help that allows you to work quietly. Well, almost quiet!
pinkograf.com
I usually fix delivery time from clients and always try to finish before deadline. Professional always should know when their work will finish. clipping path or other graphics design services client satisfaction is most impotent with best quality of service with quick turnaround time so its better fix the delivery timing and complete the job before client needs, I always try to keep some extra time from my client so that i can give best job to my client.
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