Feel ripped off!!!!
punchnpolish (10 pencils) | Tue, 2007-12-11 03:56Hey everyone, I just found this site and I love it. I will definitely be contributing to critiques and forums. I have a quick question. I just started a new design company and like everyone am feeling the effects of client relationships (how they want everything for nothing). Blah, blah, blah. Anyway I have a client that needed some CD comps designed for a presentation. We were told we would get the account but needed to get started right away. We sent the final contract along with the comps and haven't heard from the client regarding any changes, other work, etc. We found out 2 weeks later, they felt our quote was too high and were gonna do the work in-house. We didn't have a problem with that but wanted to get paid for the work we completed. We sent an invoice. 30 days later when the money was due, they mentioned they were not obligated to pay for comps that we created. You probably know how I feel. What is my course of action at this point, small claims, cease-assist letter, etc. If any of yo have any info regarding a similar situation, your knowledge and direction wuld be great! Thanks in advance.
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Did you have a contract?
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Powerpoint is not a design application
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Dirt and Rust
Kind of. Contract was sent with the comps, in good-faith that we had the job and the contract was to be sent back to us. They never signed and sent anything back and stiffed us on the job. They did use the art in their presentation, but decided we were too expensive after we gave them some of the work.
You were taken advantage of and now you have no recourse because they didn't sign the contract. Take your lumps on this one and move on. Have you learned a valuable lesson?
Believe me, I think most of us have been where you are at least once; scratching our heads wondering what went so wrong on a job. So I feel for you big time!
But remember, just because it's a design firm doesn't mean they have ethics, morals or scruples. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS get your jobs signed off on before any work is done. Not only for the $$$ factor but for the general agreement stipulations as well. The contract is the guide for the entire job process.
Technically, they didn't stiff you. Because you didn't make them sign a contract, you basically said, 'please, take this art for free'. I hate to say it like that, but that's how the business world works. Just look at Bill Gates and Steve Jobs; Steve Jobs and IBM. Lots of 'borrowing' going on.
If a potential client is too busy for this all-important step, then back away from them immediately and don't work with them.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
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Dirt and Rust
Only way to learn sometimes. Thanks for your help.
You bet.
Oh, by the way, it's a 'cease and desist' letter. It's a letter written by a lawyer warning of pending legal action. It doesn't do much more than scare a client into paying. Wouldn't really work in this case since you don't have anything in writing to stand on...
Hey, I'm looking forward to seeing any work you want to post here. And definitely know that you have the support of everyone here with regard to your situation.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
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Dirt and Rust
you THEORETICALLY could go after them saying there was a verbal agreement, but that's REALLY hard to prove.. it becomes a you said they said..
as everything already discussed with Nato, it's a shit position to be in, but it's a hell of a learning lesson...we all go through it at some point in time.
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Architectural Technician - Multimedia Designer
www.ArchMedia.us
If they USED some of the art you created, doesn't that mean it's NOT a comp, and they owe you for work that was done, whether or not they signed a contract?
Seems to me that their use of your work constitutes agreement w/ the contract, even if they didn't sign it.
I'm no lawyer, and have even less experience w/ them than most (unless watching an occasional Boston Legal episode counts), and/or maybe I misunderstood something. Just sharing some thoughts.
However, if you're talking about relatively little money, I agree and let it go (and add that client to your Poop list).
Here's a NEW question:
Who owns that work now?
If it's YOU, maybe the way to "make back" that expense is to apply the work to another client (one who signed a contract!).
Yeah I totally see where you were going with this and that's why I felt I had a course of action. As for the amount it's really not that much but when you are starting a business, every penny counts. Also I am a man of principle and apparently half the *&%$ out there are not. I just feel people need to know that they just walk on others, but as a business owner I understand that you take losses like these. Too bad I'm a nice guy...I can see how cops become dicks. Anyway thanks, and we'll see.
Both you and Slowx are talking about natural law, in a way, that you are appealing to their sense of fairness to give you SOMETHING for the use of your property. Basically you gave over some of your rights to your work when you handed it to them without signing a contract, so yes you are screwed. BUT you can bug the LIFE out of them for the next couple of weeks and they MIGHT decide to give in. . .worth a try. :)
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
From what I know of the law, in any business transaction you need documentation to make it defensible in court. If it's not written down it becomes a matter of he said she said.
If you have a lot of money and a lot of proof (again, written documentation) then you can go after the scoundrels and get your payment, but otherwise it's a lost cause.
Some helpful info on aiga.org:
http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/design-business-and-ethics
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Powerpoint is not a design application
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Dirt and Rust
I have no advice for you, but I'm sure sorry that happened to you.
I did something once for some guy who had this huge money-making idea that was dependent upon his getting investors to pay for the company to start up... I got SOOOO suckered into doing tons of creative work for him... and I have yet to see a dime because it was all done verbally and on "good faith".
I was really upset when he started blowing me off and turning on me and getting mad at me when I told him I couldn't do any more work for him until he paid me up front.
Still nothing's gone through - his business hasn't launched, either... and I know he's off suckering other poor people into doing more work for him for no pay for a project that will go nowhere.
I had to just suck it up and take the loss. I'm talking thousands of dollars in work here, too. Lesson learned. I can only try to be positive where this guy's concerned and hope that one day if his business ever launches and he becomes successful he grows a conscience and pays me what he owes me. Until then... just another lesson learned.
Is it correct that they had you do the artwork, are currently using it (or blatant rip-offs of it), but wouldn't pay for it because it's too much?
They cannot use your artwork. It is your copyright. The least you can do is send them a cease-and-assist letter to return all files, etc that you gave to them and keep them from using it in the future.
If they don't, see a copyright lawyer.
Per my previous post, it's a 'cease and desist' letter, not 'assist'. :)
Cease and Desist Letter
Copyright Infringement
Go here and look at 'copyright' link:
http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/design-business-and-ethics
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Powerpoint is not a design application
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Dirt and Rust
Yeah, I thought about checking that but never did... LOL
When you have a meeting with a client, take a dictaphone or some sort of digital recorder with. It's the easiest way to ensure you get all the detail of a meeting, without having to scribble all the time. This helps in three ways - 1) You don't have to sit and write while meeting with your client, allowing them an uninterrupted interview 2) It illimenates misunderstandings, since you can replay any requests and last but not the least 3) you have proof of verbal agreements.
Just my two cents.
The Construct Agency
Building Creative Brands for People
Some people do NOT like to be taped for various reasons. You should clear it first with the person being recorded before doing that. If they are not happy with that idea then making notes is fine. . .
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
In the States, unless you have a warrant I believe it's also illegal to do so unless you have the consent of at least one person on the call:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=374678
Of course if you just ask the client in person the phone rule doesn't apply. :)
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Powerpoint is not a design application
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Dirt and Rust