Handing over the source files to the client
pleasebekind (49 points) | Thu, 2009-05-14 03:57I know this has been an issue that's been talked about over and over. As much as possible, I know that I should never give out the source files to the client, like PSDs, fonts, vectors made in Illustrator, etc. It's my work, and unless I hand over the rights to the client, I own everything.
I also read somewhere here in CB that you should keep it because it's how you earn more later on, in the sense that if the client wants the logo to be placed in another design, or resized, or whatever, they have to come back to you and you can charge them (my English is not so good so correct me if I phrased it incorrectly).
But I'd like your opinion on my friend's situation who's asking for advice regarding this. She's in Singapore and her client is a wedding planner in Seattle. They've coordinated and worked together fine, until it came down to the printing of the business cards, letterhead, etc. Her client is asking for the source files so it can be sent for printing and used for other stuff.
1. Should she send it? She's considering the possibility of sending the PSD file but with the images flattened. Resolution is high so it can be resized. She's going to keep the vectors that she did in Illustrator and the fonts, too. And then just tell her client to buy the fonts if the client wants a copy.
2. The other scenario is to send everything, but ask for a fee. In this situation, can you suggest a nice way of saying it so the client won't get mad/offended/bratty/difficult? Also, how much do you think she should charge for it?
3. Another would be to take care of everything, like the printing of the materials and stuff. And then ship the materials. And then just charge the client later on for expenses, etc.
Can you think of other suggestions? I've never dealt with her kind of situation before -- outsourcing can present several issues like these so I thought I'd ask you guys. Thanks in advance!
First off, your friend does NOT necessarily own the rights to the work she's done. In many cases, work for hire does not allow you to retain the rights to the work. Without going into a whole lot of detail (I'm sure someone else will), she needs to realize that she isn't creating a work of art here - it's an identity kit for a small company. The world we live in simply doesn't afford some of the luxuries we as designers had in the past.
Second, "keeping your work" is not how you earn more work later on. Doing great work and being a great resource to your client is how you earn more later on. Being a stick in the mud over a few files isn't going to get you more work, it's just going to piss-off the client. If your friend hasn't already sent the files, it's too late - they're already pissed. Trust me.
As far as your direct questions:
#1: Send the files. It is widely accepted that when you design a logo for a client, you provide them with the vector files so they can use the logo however they wish. The fonts are another question. By law, you cannot share the fonts with them for any reason other than printing the file as intended. In other words, they can't use the fonts for creating a print ad. Just convert the fonts to outlines and send them the .EPS file.
If she didn't design the logo (the client provided it), then you're only required to provide the files necessary to print the job - in this day & age that means a high-resolution PDF file. But there's no reason to be stubborn here. She didn't create a masterpiece for a multi-million dollar company.
#2: I assume your friend designing the business cards and letterhead got paid, yes? If so, put the damn files on a CD for the client and be done with it. Seriously. She's possibly losing future work over 10 minutes of her time. It just isn't worth the risk, or the aggravation.
#3 I'm not sure what the question is here, but it appears as though you're asking if she should handle the printing of the job simply to avoid burning a CD. Refer back to answer #2. If she insists on being a designer and a bank, that's her decision.
As for me, I'm not a bank. I don't "front" money for my clients to get other work done. If they want her to handle the printing, she needs to get the money up front (and add a respectable amount of commission on top of the actual printing fee - again, don't get crazy with it).
Think of it this way; you should only be willing to lose your time. If you run the risk of losing money out of your pocket, you need to think about things a little more clearly. (I'm talking about freelance designers here. Once you get big enough and can afford to possibly lose thousands of dollars on a print job, the story changes.)
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Visit The Graphic Mac for graphics and Mac OS tips, reviews, tutorials and discussion.
I knew that bit about keeping the work would get me in a bit of bind. Really sorry, it didn't come out as accurately as I would've liked to. English is not my first language, so my apologies. Anyway, the point I was trying to make was what gwells said below this comment -- about the design you made being a basis for more designs and what not. I tried looking for the thread where I found this similar discussion but failed, that's why I started a new one.
My friend says that the client wants the fonts. So yeah converting them to outlines would be a good solution. I'll tell her this. About the logo -- she made it from scratch (sketching, then rendered in the computer, then vectorized etc etc) and the client is asking for the PSD and AI files.
Anyway, she hasn't been paid yet. That's why she's thinking of adding a commission if ever the client agrees to let her take care of the printing and other stuff.
Thanks for the reply. Happy to learn something new every day. I'll try to express my thoughts better next time; I hope you weren't too exasperated. It's just that I know I'll be getting the answers that I need here in CB, so I thought I'd ask.
several things to comment on here.
1) always specify how you're going to handle this up front. in a contract. if you're going to retain the rights to the original files, say so in the contract. if it's a new client, point that out so the client understands and you can negotiate it up front.
2) jim is right that it's common practice to give final artwork (and legal rights, most of the time) to the clients for logo/identity design. that doesn't necessarily mean source files or work files, but a final series of files that the client can use in any situation (vector EPS, TIF, JPG, transparent PNG/GIF, whatever they need, with fonts outlined in the EPS).
3) he's also right that you don't make money in the future on things like resizing logos.
that said, there are times where it can make sense to retain the rights to your work, unless the client pays for them (or negotiates for them). if they're coming to you to design a brochure that's going to end up being the basis for 10 more brochures, if they pay you for one, get the source files, and use them to create 9 other brochures themselves, you're not getting value for your work if they don't pay for those source files. creating them a template and giving them source files they can use for future designs without you has more value to them than simply giving them a PDF of the first brochure to print. that should be accounted for in the contract.
again, it all comes down to having a contract, spelling everything out up front and making sure they understand. if they balk at not getting source files, negotiate a different price.
i have no problem giving source files to a client, but if they want that added value, they need to pay for the added value. because there is an added value there (otherwise they wouldn't ask for them or care if they got them) and you should be compensated for that added value.
thank you again! you've been of tremendous help to me the last time so I really appreciate your input. what I said above was just not worded as well as I would've liked -- anyway the point that I was trying to make was what you said just now.
as for the giving of the final artwork, I just want to clarify -- in my experience, yes I've handed over the final files (like vector EPS, TIF, JPG, transparent PNG/GIF, fonts outlined in the EPS) to my clients, but never the PSD or AI files, just because they never asked for them, and I never included that in my contract.
however, my friend's client is asking for those particular files (PSD and/or AI), and she's just wondering if she should give it. her gut says no, but she thought to ask me, and since I was unsure of it myself (I haven't been doing this for very long, please be kind!) I posted the question here.
they don't have a contract and they're just working on a "good faith" basis -- it's this cultural thing they have that I still don't get. believe me, I've lectured her already about this and she says she'll use a contract next time. nevertheless the fact still remains that she still has this issue.
i guess she should just give everything and price it accordingly? how do you compute for that "added value" anyway? is it like, 10% more of the total cost?
(I'm really cringing at my ignorance but would be waiting for your reply)
the value depends on the situation (how complex is what you'd be handing over? what kind of product is it and how would they continue to use it?) and what you can negotiate. i've seen anywhere from 10% to 50% and have heard of people asking more. i don't think there's a solid rule of thumb.
if she were to give them PSD or AI files, i would give them flattened files with fonts rendered/outlined. that's really no different than giving them a TIF or EPS file, just a different file format.
if they wanted layered work product, that costs extra. and the more complex it was, the more i'd ask for it. they're not really hiring you to get your complete work process, they're contracting for an end product.
if they want it in native file format, and it can be flattened and outlined/rendered, like a PSD/AI file, that's no big deal. if they want all the layers and styles and all of the rest of the stuff you set up, that's a completely different thing.
it hasn't happened to me yet - that is, instances when the client would ask for the native files. but I'm curious to this issue just in case I might come across it in the future, you know? this situation. so it helps to be prepared.
thanks for the advice. yeah, layered files should be charged differently, I would agree. my friend says the client wants the PSD files so they can see how the design was put together...said they were "curious". although the final output was rendered in Illustrator and vectorized, the client wants to the file from the earlier stages. which was just, to me, sounding too advantageous.
Such curiosity is truly amazing.Tell your friend she can respond to the client's curiosity by writing to her to explain what the process involves. There is no need to release the PSD files to the client. I cannot state strongly enough how obvious it is (to me, at least) that the client is trying to get the work for free, and/or in a form that she can reuse later without going back to your client.
Mara
It sounds to me like this wedding planner is expecting to take the PSD and AI files so she can use them to create an unless supply of printed pieces for new brides by just changing the names, dates, etc.
The "value added" in that case would be half what the planner thinks this move is going to save her.
She's taking advantage of your friend. Your friend still has the artwork, but no money? She should negotiate a fair price (see above re: value added), get the money, send the files, and then drop this client like a hot potato.
Then she should work up a contract so she doesn't have to go through this again.
Mara
my friend said that the client told her "I want to see how you put together the logo, so can you send me the PSD file? I'm just curious" or something to that effect. my friend used brushes for the design (she paid for that so that she can use the brushes commercially and so she can have the license to do so), and then after that she used AI so that the final output will be in vector.
so technically she should just send the output, right?
Technically, since she has been paid NOTHING so far, she should send NOTHING. This client is trying to rip her off.
Mara
In this situation, once she gets paid, I would say hand over the Illustrator/vector files (or a PSD if that's how she created it). If the work was good, and the wedding planners need more work done, they'll call on her.
BUT, she does need to get paid before handing over any files.
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I have to disagree here with JimD just a bit.
It's not being a "stick in the mud" to make more money on other projects by holding on to the files: It's good business but it's also quality control. If a client wants to arrange their own printing and make variations on same (the invitation card angle discussed) then I charge a little extra for the source files and wash my hands of it. If they want me to do the printing and sourcing, then I handle it, but I keep the files.
That way, I don't get a call from a frustrated client who's done all their own printing asking me why I messed it up!
Things just seem to go better if there's a clear line between who's holding on to the original files. Wedding photographers do this as well; it's how they make more money, by selling prints of the wedding photos they take. They do not give up their negatives unless you pay them to do so.
As designers we have to be aware that work done on a freelance basis, as this case seems to be, is work we own (not the client's proprietary files, however, such as photos, ideas, etc.) and should consider it as such until we sign those rights away. Those rights have value and shouldn't be taken lightly.
The designers of the Nike logo and smiley face would be a bit richer had they followed this advice! :D I don't think anyone would have faulted them for asking for royalties on their creative work, even though there's a hefty dose of hindsight in these examples.
I think the crux of this issue is, what is the original agreement? If your friend never discussed file ownership with the client then sure, this issue is going to rear its ugly head. However, that's what a good contract is for: It sets out the responsibilities of each party beforehand so there's no misunderstandings.
Get it in writing. Get it in writing. Get it in writing.
P.S. Please tell your friend to stop designing business cards in Photoshop!
I posted this comment without logging in first. Whoops!
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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The Salon Design Tech
"As designers we have to be aware that work done on a freelance basis, as this case seems to be, is work we own (not the client's proprietary files, however, such as photos, ideas, etc.) and should consider it as such until we sign those rights away. Those rights have value and shouldn't be taken lightly." -- yes I agree on this. I haven't been a print designer for very long, but before getting into this I was a clothing/textile designer...so the jobs might be different but I feel like the fundamental concept of ownership is still there. When people wanted clothes or patterns designed by me, I never gave up the files to those unless they ask for it, and when they do I always charge higher. I was just thinking that the principle is similar to print design. Thanks for your reply.
As for the original agreement, no, my friend didn't discuss the issue of file ownership with her client...which is why this is fast becoming a problem. But based from the discussions here, I would suggest that she hand the AI file with the fonts outlined. As for the PSD, haha! She did the initial design there -- she used brushes she purchased for commercial use, etc etc -- before rendering the logo in Illustrator so the final output would be vector ;) And surprisingly, the client wanted the PSD file...as I've said in a few comments above, the client was said to be "curious" about how everything was put together, so she wanted to see the layers, and a copy of the brushes, etc etc. Which is fishy to me.
But -- should my friend decide to hand over everything, she should charge higher, yes? Or ask the client to purchase their own brushes and fonts.
You seem to be very conflicted about this. :D I was pretty clear in my posts that you either keep the files or you charge the client, give them all the files and wash your hands of it. This option you suggest, giving them only part of the files, is just going to lead to trouble. It's deceptive.
Make an agreement and follow through with it; that's what I suggest.
The client obviously wants the files and doesn't know how to correclty ask for them, so they need to be educated.
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The Salon Design Tech
Value is perceived.
If you give your sources files away for nothing your saying to a client "All my years of experience, knowledge, know-how and expertise (i.e. why they hired you in the first place) - you can have that in the files. Which they will give to someone else to use" and here's the kicker - you don't get compensated for it. To my that equals = client doesn't value what you do.
I'm in digital so that matter is even more complex with code libraries and Proprietary IP etc, however print material should be given to the client in a format they can use for the SPECIFIC task they hired you for. If it was to create 1 flyer, then here's the PDF for that task. If they want you to create a 'template' that can then be re-used for another purpose, you should charge them extra for that initial design job. If they want to run the work internationally, then you should be compensated for that also either upfront in the terms or negotiate before the campaign starts - you are loosing future revenue possibilities by handing source files over.
Of course if your hired by a large corporation to work for them, it's generally the norm to sign your work, future rights and first born child away to them... But they pay well.
But if you're working freelance and working for a single client who's not a corporation -- then it is not a rigid practice to hand over the source files, right? Just asking for confirmation.
Eric Karjaluoto presents a different perspective on this question:
"I don’t want any of our clients working with us because they believe they are stuck by a contract signed years ago. To the contrary, I want them to always remember that they are in control. They can come and go as they please. We’ll hold on to our clients through good service, not handcuffs."
http://bit.ly/19EtQk
i don't think that's necessarily a different perspective. as i said, there's nothing wrong with giving clients native files. the keys is getting value for what you're giving them. if you're giving them native files, and thus "reuse" opportunities, then they should be charged appropriately.
and if there's no "reuse" opportunity, then there's no reason for them to even ask for the native files.
Hello. It's my practice that when the client pays the invoice, they own the rights. I do not do large scale work worth multi-millions that result in international renown, so for me it's not an issue.
Money first, files after.
However, as a rule I try not provide my source files to the client. I re-assure the client I am here for whatever marketing needs they have, and can work within the constraints of almost any budget in hopes they will continue to use me (and they usually do).
But once the client pays the invoice, in my mind the job is 'ours'. Meaning the client's and mine. And they can have almost any part of it they want - Depending on real legal constraints (stock photo re-use regulations for example).
I always provide a document from which they can print or use for the web (PSD, packaged InDesign File, PDF, whatever is requested). If it's a logo, I provide color, black and white, EPS, JPG, etc. depending on how they will use the logo.
But if the client insists on taking everything away from me, I get the money first. Luckily this has worked out well for me 90% of the time.
I usually supply my clients with a final pdf for printing so I don't need to give my source files but again if they ask for them I would give them to them. Being on the other end and working with a client who had gone elsewhere for work and then trying to get files from them has always been a big pain so rise above and hand over nice clean files so your work remains with it's intended look and no one has to "rebuild" your files and have it be different than how you wanted it and how the client wanted.
Jessica Mahoney
www.holdtheonionplease.blogspot.com
i don't think it's an issue of "rising above." i think it's about "value."
again, none of this should be a problem if you spell everything out in advance and work out what you're going to do with a client in your contract. if everyone is on the same page from day 1, there shouldn't be problems. it's only a problem when you "presume" clients will understand the issue and don't talk to them up front. so talk to your client. write up a contract, give it to them, go over it with them. again, nothing wrong with giving them native files. just understand that those have more value than printable PDF files. if you give them away for free all the time, you're devaluing your work. if you're giving them away all the time, but adding that value into your contract, you're valuing your work properly. if you're adding clauses into your contract that say the client gets printable PDFs and native files carry additional cost, you're valuing your work properly. neither approach is wrong, as long as you understand the value of your work.
managing expectations. communication. these are the things that make for good client relationships. if you do that, good clients will appreciate you for it.
Personally I always negotiated a price in advance that included source files. I always hated the debate with client about this issue. I agree with Eric Karjaluoto, that client should feel the freedom to do anything they want with the files I create for them.
I agree. What I do for my clients is theirs as I will have no future use for it, nor would I want to rehash something I enjoyed creating in the first place for them for someone else?!
If they want another designer to rework my design so be it. After all, the first movie is always better than the sequels. ;)
"Art -- the one achievement of Man which has made the long trip up from all fours seem well advised." - James Thurber
This is a question that just occurred to me: say, you're quoting a price to your client about the project and all. What if you are quoting a price on an hourly rate basis? Where does the added value/price for the providing of the source files come in? Is that like, hourly rate x # of hours work + overhead expenses + price of source files?
How do you price this value in the beginning when you haven't done the work yet? Is it something like, overall cost (of the earlier computation of hourly rate etc etc) x 10% or something like that?
My opinion as with the opinion of almost all of designers I know is that unless otherwise specified, the client owns and has the right to ask for all of the files/work associated with the project (if the client has paid your invoice). Having said that I usually have to charge a small archive retrieval fee if it's after 3 months since the particular project finishing.
Therefore there is no need to negotiate price in advance and everyone is happy. If your client decides to go elsewhere and requires some of the files, then you possibly weren't doing your job well enough, or the decision was out of your hands anyway.
* This is all relies on being upfront & truthful to your client (and to yourself) by charging correctly – rather than trying to win jobs on price/or just plainly being greedy and giving the industry a bad name (like photographers have).
you're correct that the client has the right to *ask* for the files, but you own the files/work associated with the product unless you assign those rights to the client in your contract. if you choose to give them away without accounting for them in your contract fees, you're giving away intellectual property without remuneration.
now, if you're accounting for that transfer in your fee (as ivan mentioned), then you're recovering that value. but if you're just presuming that the client gets anything you did and not accounting for it in your fees, you're shorting yourself financially.
and, again, i completely agree with being upfront and truthful with your clients about this. spell it out in the contract and go over it with them.
You guys have clients who are actually aware that source files exist? Wow, most of mine wouldn't know a jpg from a .ai file!
That aside, I'd hand them over if asked. I agree with the majority of posters here: Give a great service, always be willing to help, and you'll hang on to your clients and avoid having to transfer source files.
in your case, the client might use the source files as a template for future weddings, which is not fair if the job wasnt commissioned as such upfront. its one price to design A wedding invitation. its a different price to design a wedding TEMPLATE invitation. the latter should be at least a bit more expensive since its re-usable and the client will surely make/save money on the long run.
however, since this wasnt clarified upfront, i agree with the general opinion here that a perfectly good job and a happy client shouldnt be spoiled right at the end by holding to the source files. Personally I would ask for the money before sending them, not because i question client's good faith but because it seems like the fair moment to be paid.
send the source files but also respectfully inform the client that in the future, you would like to be made aware upfront if your files are used as templates.
end in a positive tone.
and dude, dont excuse yourself about bad english skills.
it doesnt help us get your phrasing better, it doesnt make us think any less or any more of you. and the grammar nazis will still bite their fingernails. so excusing about this is just useless.
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always outnumbered, never outgunned
http://www.behance.net/mimimi
it's not a wedding invitation nor a template, just a logo. the logo's final output is in vector and was made in illustrator. but since my friend used photoshop first, and she used brushes, too, I am guessing the client wants that? because the client specifically said something about wanting to see how it was done, like wanting to see the layers and stuff...so maybe having that PSD file might lead to creating a template?
anyway I agree with this point -- "send the source files but also respectfully inform the client that in the future, you would like to be made aware upfront if your files are used as templates. end in a positive tone."
and about my english and apologizing for it, well -- it's difficult for me being on the other side having to deal with the translation and all. and I've been in situations where people overreact to what I say and me not knowing what's the source of all the sudden emotion and later on learning it was something to do with what I said...which didn't come out right. so...yeah. ^__^
if its just their logo, maybe the client just wants to know how it was done. no harm in there. just send the source files and ask the client if he wants you to explain your work.
i didnt know you can publish anonymously :)
pleasebekind, about the english and all...
why do you care that ppl might overreact to what you say?
when you know you didnt do it on purpose...
and... your nickname is pretty self-explanatory :))
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always outnumbered, never outgunned
http://www.behance.net/mimimi
Copyright law varies from country to country, but there was a recent lawsuit in New Zealand where the designers of a magazine insisted that they owned the design of the publication (the magazine had been sold and the new publishers were going to do the layouts inhouse).
Because the design agency sent the artwork to the printer before they were paid for the design it was ruled that they no longer owned the rights to the design.
I fail to understand why would it matter when do you receive your payment.
AS others have said, and I think is most important, especially if a new client with no contract is asking for source files…
Don't give anything until paid in full.
As a customer who has been on the receiving side fo this issue, I was annoyed when rebuffed when i asked for the files to adapt into my various venues.
Ten years ago, I hired a freelance graphics designer to create a corporate logo for my business and create business cards, letterhead and envelopes. File ownership was not discussed up front (of course now i know to discuss this up front, but i was just starting out and apparently the designer didn't know better either).
I intended this to be a work for hire, where at the end i owned a shiny new logo I could go about plastering on everything from cups to pens to website to my car in sizes big and small.
I intended to pay for the logo and then pay for a set of cards and stationary, i didn't mind if the designer made a commission on the printing work because i didn't know how to work well with printers and get things like sizing, vectors/pixiliztion, fonts and colors just as intended (I still wrestle with this).
I never imagined that my new corporate logo would be owned by somebody else and that it would come with use restrictions and that without the source files, I couldn't even put it on a poster without paying the graphics designer to do that for me and get in the printing.
I'm very technically inclined and could easily do the placement work, but without the vector files my scanned bitmapps would always look like crap.
I did pay the previously agreed upon fee, in full and promptly. While I did get the cards and letterhead, I didn't get the files I expected, and left more than a bit disappointed.
Despite loving the logo, I never spoke to the designer again and would never have recommended her to others.
I thought i'd be a perfect customer, someone who appreciates the work and complexity of the art of branding my business, had a general idea of what i wanted and would pay promptly for the work I was commissioning. I wasn't willing to sign myself up for long term payments every time i said my company name.
When we moved, i couldn't create changed business cards. Not knowing what went wrong with the relationship with the graphics designer i recreated my own logo using illustrator.
My new logo is reminiscent of the old logo but the art is entirely my own, and I have and own all the files.
I'm much happier now and finally do plaster it all over stuff, as I originally intended.
I sure wish I'd read this thread ten years ago, before all that strife.
ddonahue,
u are the owner of the logo. and u are entitled to receive the logo in various formats including vector. u can use a vector format logo on pretty much everything: t-shirts, pens, cups at your sole discretion. the misconception here is that you will also obtain the files with editable fonts and editable effects etc.
ill try a long shot here and compare this situation to buying a custom cake.
u get the cake in your desired size/shape/taste/cream and you can do whatever you want with it: eat it, slice it, go home and add chocolate on it, food fight with it etc. but the point here is that buying the cake does not entitle you to receive the actual recipe with the raw ingredients used to make that cake.
you are buying a final product that you own and use it at your will.
sure, in real life, some particular situations may arise.
you need a business card design and you want it for 100 people in your company. you order a design from your designer, but you rather do the rest of 99 in-house. that case you can discuss it upfront with the designer and find a compromise together. nobody will boo you for that. the designer will understand that you cant afford to pay him for editing 100 cards. so he will carge you perhaps a small extra and hand you the source files.
another example is that you need a photoshop layout for your website but you will implement that layout in HTML/CSS in-house or with another company you prefer. ofc, you need the photoshop sources to do that, so its another case you have to discuss upfront.
to conclude, there are cases when the source files are the actual commissioned work itself and those are pretty obvious. in the rest of the cases you get a final product that you own but you cant mingle with in-depth.
what happens most of the time is that clients want to get the source files and produce in-house a lot of varieties and derivatives of that work while the designer fiercely holds on to the source files in the hope he will get at least some part of that work.
in my opinion is a problem of communication between both parts.
do go to a designer, expose your problem or your plan, consult with him for the whole range of services you require and establish a common plan of action. make sure you understand each others limits clearly. thats good business for everyone.
do not think that you could do his work if only you would know the right software. you might get a decent first-timer lucky shot, but the designer will continually produce consistent results, has years of hands-on experience and was exposed to design 1000x times the amount that you have. the probability for you to be right and he wrong, creatively wise is very narrow.
dont keep him in the dark and just use it as a tool or a technical monkey. most designers hate to act all brutal and will do so only when are treated as work animals or feel that they are being taken advantage of.
for designers, try not to jump into any project before having a clear image about the client and his needs. before shaking hands do send an email outlining the steps that u usually take for that kind of project, try to make the client understand the whole process before getting it. if there are objections, they will pop-up before any money or sources are involved, and at this point nobody will lose his temper.
i always try to share as much knowledge with my client and offer him as much insight, in plain words, as possible. this shows the client that there is method involved and brain crunching aside from pixel pushing and the client pays for that too, he doesnt pay only for files. dont skip phone calls and emails, dont expect it to be done asap in order to move on. do include communication in your budget and schedule and do it gladly.
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always outnumbered, never outgunned
http://www.behance.net/mimimi
sounds like you had a terrible designer as a client. this is not how logo design is normally done and it is not how it should be done. vector files should be part of the deliverable for identity work.
standard deliverables for logo/identity work would be files in every format you would conceivably need (vector EPS/AI, and bitmaps at multiple sizes (JPG/GIF/PNG/TIF and maybe even transparent PSD/TIF)). now, that doesn't mean you should get the work product that led to the final vector file, but you should not be held hostage for that flattened vector file.
that was a horrible thing that your designer did to you and i'm sorry to hear that.
I agree with gwells. That is too bad. When it comes to identity work, I've always supplied my client with the final version of vector, tiff, jpeg, etc. usable on both platforms. And that's understood from the beginning, set out within my quote.
"Art -- the one achievement of Man which has made the long trip up from all fours seem well advised." - James Thurber
Let me join in the chorus of dismay you're getting from other designers here. Your experience was appalling. The designer you worked with was an amateur, at best, no matter how good her design was. I do hope that your future relationships with professional designers will be pleasant and productive for both of you.
Mara
who was she?
Everyone, even though this person's experience is regrettable, just because you design something for a client that's "theirs" it's not really "theirs" until you transfer the rights!
The only two situations I can think of off the top of my head where it's not your work by default:
1. You're an employee of a company
2. You sign a Work for Hire agreement or otherwise explicitly transfer the creative ownership
Work for Hire agreements have been discussed here ad nauseum. They suck for us, but can be utilised with agreement between both parties.
Please, just because someone got screwed on a deal because of ignorance, that's no reason for us to drop our standards, is it?
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The Salon Design Tech
I actually find myself in this very same dilemma. I have been doing freelance design work for a small company for the past 2 1/2 years, developing artwork for touch screen interfaces and no contract agreement was ever established upfront, either written or verbal, regarding ownership of .psd files (yes, I realize this was a big mistake). The business arrangement is now ending (partly due to the economy and partly due to a falling out) and the owner is demanding the .psd files for everything I ever created for him so that he can continue to build new templates from them and allow future designers to modify. I see this as him essentially trying to take advantage of me and get something he knows full-well doesn't belong to him for free (you'd have to know him, but trust me, he's a bully).
My take on it is this: I have no problem giving him flattened versions of the .psd files (which would be no different than the .png's he already has in his possession) so that he can continue to reproduce existing templates as-is on future projects, but refuse to simply "hand over" the layered files, as they contain style information (trade secrets) that has taken me years to develop (since before working for him). I consider those styles to be my intellectual property and the entire basis of all my work (the cake analogy is exactly what I was thinking!). I will, however, sell him my layered files for a considerable fee (2 1/2 years worth of work - there's a lot of it).
It seems like a pretty black-and-white situation to me in that 1) I'm not an employee and 2) there never was a contract. Yes? No?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Render unto the bully the things that are the bully's and keep your layered files. He has no rights to them. actually, without a contract, he has rights only to stuff he's already received and paid for, period. I'm sure there's some fine point of contract law that someone will dust off for our edification, but that's how I see it.
If you want to continue to serve this guy in some new business incarnation, you might want to placate him a little bit, but I'd wash my hands of him.
Mara
Was this company your only client? If so, then most likely you have employee status and the client owns the files. Did you work onsite for them? Then any of that work, done on their equipment, is also theirs.
Depending on your state, contractor status is a percentage of earnings from one client. In California it was something like 70-80% or above made you an employee.
The fact you don't have an agreement about this will make this a bitter fight, though you know this already. Good luck!
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The Salon Design Tech
Thanks for your input!
You've been paid (I assume) for the work you've done. Nothing last forever, and keeping the layered files from him is going to do nothing but tick the guy off. You get nothing out of it by keeping them - other than knowing that he has to go through the pain of finding someone to re-create them anyway. That's just bad karma - what goes around comes around.
The time you spend thinking about this issue, and asking about it here, would be better spent looking for new clients.
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Die old thread, die.
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The Salon Design Tech