how to open PDF to edit?
donovan1 (59 pencils) | Fri, 2008-10-24 09:44how to open PDF to edit without destroying it then save it without creating a huge file? recently a customer wanted me just to replace a logo in a PDF file he sent to me, but i wasn't able to do that because Illustrator wasn't able to save the file -- not enough RAM. the file contained hi-res raster images, at least 5 fonts and was a large format.
do you have a solution for this?
Commenting on this Forum topic is closed.
At my publishing firm we have a strict poilcy put in place by myself where we DO NOT EDIT PDF FILES FROM CLIENTS. There are a number of reasons for this but the main reason is that editing pdf files is extremely unpredictable. You might be able to get into the file and edit exactly what you need, and all looks well, so you send it off in your publication and hav 100k printed. Get it back, and hey - all the letter G are missing from all text on the pdf file you edited. Yes it can happen. Many time extremely unpredictable events can occur within pdf files that may not be apparent on quick visual overview. Hence our strict policy of not editing pdf files.
That being said - it's an uphill battle with the clients to reducate them to understand the above principles. They think you can do anything possible on a pdf file and have it come out perfect each time. Yes 99% of the time it probably will be no problems at all, but are you prepared for that one time it isn't and you run 100k press run?
Our policy is - camera-ready artwork (PDFs) is just that - completely finished, print ready material, if any problems go wrong with it - you have the argument on your side that the client created and submitted the final product and you were just a conduit to the print process. If you had edited that same pdf, the client could always argue that YOU somehow screwed it up in the process and you the designer wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
Don't Edit PDFs!
No way!
No how!
Only if I know enough about the file and how the PDF was created would I feel comfortable to modify any PDF files.
With Acrobat Professional only, not readers or any other view programs.
Create a new PDF file of the new logo they want to swap at the exact size it needs to be.
Open both the old file and the new logo file.
on the new logo PDF file
Select new logo using TouchUp Object Tool under Tools–Advanced Editing Menu.
go to the old file
Use TouchUp Object Tool, paste and move where you need to place that new logo. Remember to delete the old one being replaced. Draw guides if this will help you with placement.
Save.
Solution: Don't let your clients design your pdf files!
If they want it designed right, have them send you the text, images, and any instructions and let you create the document to the correct printer spec.
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
thanks guys, but i think this is to idealistic for the everyday's job. however, this time the designers won, because our client accepted that the logo won't be replaced.
maybe the really wrong decision was that the original designer gave the client only a pdf without the native file (InDesign or something). now, we could be even more idealistic and say "give the client your native files".
most designers don't give clients native files unless they're willing to pay a buyout fee. as a designer, your working files are your intellectual property. you're under no obligation to give them to the client unless specified in the contract. all of my contracts specify that i *won't* give the client the native files without a buyout fee. unless i've negotiated up front that i will give them the files, in which case it's spelled out in the contract.
hey natobasso, a funny signature it is. i would even say: "Arial is not a typeface." :)
Ha ha. :)
Though Arial is a great typeface because it closely resembles Helvetica. Yes, Helvetica is a great typeface, have you seen the movie "Helvetica"? You should.
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
In this case maybe you could have placed the pdf in InDesign , and then superimposed the new logo on top of the old one? I think it is unrealistic to believe that you will never have to crack open a pdf to get a job done. As far as the text and/or other elements dropping off or shifting, that is what proofs are signed off for. They supply crappy files, they take responsibility for those files.
superimposing a logo on top wouldn't be the best idea because the backgorund was a gradient.
i managed to crack the pdf using Illustrator Transparancy Flattener but then Illy wasn't able to save it -- run out of RAM. through the cracking the raster images inside the artwork were shattered into dozens of pieces.
then i wanted to convert the PDF file into a EPS file, because its virtualy the same, but couldn't find a way to do so -- both Illy and InDesign open PDFs as a single and closed object.
the illy flattening or the original application rasterized and broke it up on export to PDF, there's no way to recombine it from the pdf, and split the logo from the BG gradient unless you get the original application file or rebuild the dcument from scratch. all those images will cause it to run out of ram if you don't have enough
"...and mamma cried: Watch out where the huskies go, don't you eat that yellow snow" - Frank Zappa
well then you are hosed...
As a printing co, our workflow was based on PDF and we prefered that our customers give us PDF's
we used a plugin for Acrobat pro by Enfocus software called Pitstop Professional, it's not cheap, but there's a lot that it will enable you to do such as font/color replacement. We also edited embedded images in Photoshop and single pages in Illustator.
here's some steps to to take to ensure it goes OK:
1. always work on a copy not the original!
2. be sure that all fonts and images are embeded and of the correct type for the work (to be sure you don't lose every "g" throughout the file)
3. optimize the PDF, being very careful of image resolution and other settings and double checking the entire file afterwards. This may eliminate the trouble you are experiencing.
regarding media rights: I don't see how this situation is different from normal, but you can give them the logo in a seperate file, as normal, and they can ask the print shop to replace it in the document, we used to do that all of the time, it's part of the prepress process and we were set up for it though we up-charged for things like that. if you already agreed to this though, you can tell them that the file they gave you is not adequate, and ask do they "want me to rebuild it for $xxxx ? do they have the aplication file? or just do the logo and have the printer replace it in the document?"
"...and mamma cried: Watch out where the huskies go, don't you eat that yellow snow" - Frank Zappa
As I tried to say before, don't let your clients design your files or have anything to do with them unless you have them pay for the right to do so. That means you transfer the control and ownership to them either permanently or temporarily.
A client that tries to do it themselves and then sends a pdf file back to me for editing will get nothing but a hearty guffah laugh from me unless they send me back the original files. It's like an architect sending a client their CAD files, at client request, and then getting that file back as a blueprint. "Can you edit this"? Argh. Not gonna happen.
Your client needs to be informed that they hire you to do this work. Asking you to take a file back after they've "worked with it" only makes your job harder.
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
I don't think he's reworking his own work after the customer's post-edit... I think they hired him to do a new logo, and they want it placed in this previously printed pdf, created by a previously hired designer, ie..they want to reprint the same document, but with the new logo.
If they dont have the original, he will have to rebuild the file from scratch, but the printers prepress dept should be able to replace the logo for them if they have the original application file, and he should not need to go to that trouble, at least not for the price of a logo anyway.
In this case it's up to the customer to get the original for him even if from the original designer if they can. it sounds to me like they don't want to deal with the original designer anymore, or are embarassed to admit they went to someone else for the new logo or maybe just thought he could do it with the PDF. customers don't always know enough about this to know what can be done, which is why they hire us I guess...
"...and mamma cried: Watch out where the huskies go, don't you eat that yellow snow" - Frank Zappa
True, but don't forget pdf files can be opened and edited in Illustrator...
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
I send a PDF file from InDesign last week for a brochure and the printer emailed back: "Please resubmit file with fonts outlined" . . . I called him up and said. . ."But its a PDF the fonts are embedded" "No. Resend as an outlined file please." So then I asked "Are you opening this PDF in Illustrator?" "Sure, how else can we work with it?"
"Sigh" Went back into InDesign, outputted each page to EPS, outlined and re-saved each file as a PDF, combined it in Acrobat and re-saved as a PDF-X1a in Acrobat. The job printed fine.
"How else indeed?"
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
Time to get a new printer!
Did you try sending them pdf/x-1a files instead? Fonts are embedded...
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
That's EXACTLY what I sent the first time!
I COULD have just outlined the InDesign File. . . but I wanted to make sure he wouldn't call back and say. . ."Uhhhh we can't [insert excuse here] because Illustrator can't [insert lame reason here]. . ."
I have a freelance artist who REFUSED to do ANYTHING unless it was done in Illustrator 8! Yes. . . He's STILL using Illustrator 8 FOR EVERY THING!
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
it's funny how many people try to solve a file problem by banning the file type instead of learning what the problem was to begin with and then learning how to fix it. It's such a waste. Digital Prepress is supposed to be about solving those puzzles, not ignoring them... sigh.
To adress the issue of Illy opening a PDF, there's always acrobat security options, PW protect the file allowing only reading and printing. now there's no editing or copy and paste, problem solved.
From a rights vantage I don't think you can maintain rights to a logo you design for a company. it's not like a painting that you can copy and sell to millions. If I remember correctly, because it has been made for their identity, for them to use indefinitely, that once you give it to them, it's no longer your intellectual property it becomes theirs. You made it for them and the rights transfer to them when they take posession. I think the same applies to all forms of the logo including original applications files. maybe you can get away with it if it's stated contractually that it remains yours, but I bet they'd still win in court even then.
"...and mamma cried: Watch out where the huskies go, don't you eat that yellow snow" - Frank Zappa
Lots of discussions regarding rights here on CB but it boils down to two different scenarios:
1. If you are an employee, the company owns it.
2. If you are freelance, you own your work unless you sign it away.
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
that's not how IP works. if you create the logo, you have all the intellectual property rights. they don't automatically go to your client unless you explicitly give them to the client.
now it's industry standard to do that when creating a logo, and i don't know anyone who doesn't. but i do know of a couple of cases where studios have successfully (in the US) filed restraining orders against a company using a logo created by them because their contract specified that the IP rights to the logo were not transferred until payment was made in full.
regardless, the designer retains all rights to anything they create (as themselves, not as employees) unless explicitly granted otherwise.
gwells, we are in agreement here.
Remember, anything you create while an employee is the property of the company you are working for, not your own, by virtue of the relationship.
As I said in #2, if you create something freelance, yes, you own the rights to it. Not sure why you misunderstood?
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
my response was to walks_in_trees, not to you nate.
Sorry, very hard to tell when you don't specify. :)
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
no problem. i try to be good about nesting my reply in the right place, but it's easy to misunderstand.
if the customer has not payed, then they have not legally taken posession of the product.
But what is it that the customer is paying you for? I can see holding back the full quality versions until payment is complete. But if it was me, and it was my business identity at stake, once that check cleared I would want a copy of the original, because that's what I paid for, I paid for an Identity, not a jpg of an Identity, you see? but that's just me and I guess I would be sure that my contract with the artist included that before I agreed. So you could be right and I'll look it up to be sure, I have read the rules of copyright and IP and trademarks etc before, I just don't remember them clearly.
From the artist's side of the fence, what reason do I have to keep the original from them once they've paid and recieved a working file? it's not like I can sell it to anyone else...if they really want to drop me and get someone else, the next guy can rebuild the logo from a web page or previous print, no problem. I used to have to rebuild artwork in prepress all the time... the customer would send a bound book originally printed from film, by a printer who went out of business years ago, that would have to be trimmed and scanned and then cleaned up, and every odd page would have a logo with screens in the upper corner... sigh... no way in hell I'm cleaning up 120 copies of a logo dot by halftone dot. So I rebuild it, and create an action to replace it to the same position on every odd page in acrobat. Maybe it would keep the "this guy is cheaper" customers from going elsewhere, but I doubt it, they wouldn't even bother having it rebuilt, "yeah just use this JPG..." I saw plenty of that in prepress too: the jpg would be from a website and all pixelated @ 72 ppi and they'd want to use it in a book printing @ 133 LPI.
"...and mamma cried: Watch out where the huskies go, don't you eat that yellow snow" - Frank Zappa
You do need to revisit art usage. You get paid by the client to use it for other things such as on websites, on ads (that you hopefully design and get paid for!) and other such billable hours.
To be clear: THE CLIENT DOES NOT OWN THE ARTWORK TILL YOU SIGN IT OVER TO HIM/HER/IT! Doesn't matter if it's a logo for that person's company, you still own the artwork. This is why rights are transferred and you get paid if they want to own it outright.
Search some more on this website for "licensing" and "rights" to get more info, or go to aiga.org.
Think less like an artist and more like a businessperson to see the monetary benefits. You're missing out!
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
nate is right in his response.
first, you need to step back from logo design specifically and look at design in general. when you create a work as a hired consultant (not as an employee), you automatically own the rights to that work. you then can choose to transfer the rights to the client, if you wish.
as i said before, in the case of a logo and/or identity, it's standard practice to do that for most designers, but it has to be done explicitly in writing or it has not been transferred legally.
you seem to be getting caught up in unrelated details, like what file format or whether it's bitmap or vector. that's irrelevant to the discussion of legal rights of ownership of the design. even if you give them an illustrator file of a vector piece of art (logo or other design, doesn't matter), that doesn't transfer the *ownership* of the design or its elements.
it's just like a stock photography company licensing you to use a photo under certain conditions. whether rights managed or royalty free, stock photography has rules written into the contract you agree to about how you can use that photo and either the stock company or the original photographer still owns the photo. you can't give it to someone else to use or use it in ways not allowed in that contract.
the same is true for a graphic designer's work. your contract should specify what rights the client has to the work and how they can use them in the future. if it's a brochure that includes custom designed icons, they can't legally just take those icons and use them on their web site w/o your agreement.
as far as what your customer is paying for, they're paying for two things. first they're paying for your expertise in designing their product. second they're paying for the end product (and this part is important) as specified in the contract. in the case of a logo, designers generally do (and should) transfer all rights to the design to the client. but the IP rights to any product only transfer when specifically given. if i design a brochure w/custom icons in it, my client doesn't automatically own those icons to use on their web site w/o my permission. just like the stock photo example above, i still own the product. if i knew they were going to use those icons not only in the brochure i did, but on their business cards, their web site, commercials, posters, billboards, and a whole campaign, i may want to charge them a different fee. and as the owner of the design, that's my choice.
I'm going to jump in because I have been through this, and it seems that the copyright law in Canada is similar, if not the same, as the States.
Years ago, I designed the logo for the Ontario Veal Association. To be on the up and up, this producer group paid a copyright lawyer $xxxxk for ownership of this logo and had me sign off on it.
As stated above, your fee covers their use of your artwork, not ownership. You own the rights to your artwork, and in Canada, your heirs own it 50 years after your death.
"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."
— Frank Zappa
"Art -- the one achievement of Man which has made the long trip up from all fours seem well advised." - James Thurber
I'm going to combine this thread with the other one.
No I was't getting caught up with format, I was attempting to be clear to you all as to how I was looking at it so that you could correct me and challenge the premise.
I understand that it all sorts out with a proper contract, and that the Law is as you say.
So now by your statement, at some future point I should be able to refuse further usage. What is legally assumed to be the period of usage if no contract is involved or if it's not stated? When can I legally call up the customer and refuse them further usage? or is it phrased "indefinite"
Could I, if I had designed the Nike logo for instance, call up Nike and say: Your contract is up, and I decided not to renew, I just sold your logo to Vinyard Shoes.
and I should be able to specify a yearly renewal fee in the contract.
"...and mamma cried: Watch out where the huskies go, don't you eat that yellow snow" - Frank Zappa
i'm not an IP expert. my guess (i've never encountered the issue) would be that, if you don't expressly state a limit to usage of a design you didn't transfer the rights to, like a logo (which would never come up with me, since i would transfer rights in that case), you would have a difficult time telling them "i've decided you can't use the logo any more."
nor do i know how IP law would cover the transfer of rights to a 3rd party.
you could attempt to specify a yearly renewal fee in a contract, but i suspect no client would sign it.
i think you're trying to make this far more difficult than it need be by trying to come up with random situations that might make the law more difficult to understand or enforce. sometimes it's just ok to accept that something is what it is. this probably isn't the best forum to explore esoteric applications of IP law, since none of us are lawyers. we can talk general principals because we're in the business, but once you start to get into "what ifs" just to see if you can break the premise, it's time to start talking to lawyers if you want accurate answers.
If you don't specifically name the terms and transfer the artwork, it's yours for, I think, 70 years, then it goes to public domain.
The Nike logo, ironically, had all rights signed over by the designer for ~$30, but that designer was compensated later on even though the rights were fully transferred.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swoosh
Remember, the rights exist and you can use them to your business advantage.
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Natobasso
dirtandrust.com
"Powerpoint is not a design application"
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Dirt and Rust
well yeah that was the point, to make people think! whether anyone but us three is still reading this thread is a different matter, but I like to try to look at things in a different light, keeps everyone on their toes
No we're not lawyers, but we should still be aware of how the lawyers are writing away our lives for us. and there's no reason that we should wait for them to tell us what the law is, when all you have to do is be able to convince the right judge that your way of looking at things makes sense.
I had a neighbor where I used to live, the town tried 3 times to take him to court for the junk cars in his yard... and he won every time, just an average guy, kind of weird looking, retired from a janitor position at the local college... but he researched it and won, every time.
"...and mamma cried: Watch out where the huskies go, don't you eat that yellow snow" - Frank Zappa