I had to share this... one of my FAVORITE customers!
Triple One (103 pencils) | Tue, 2008-03-04 19:49Actually, I cringe when this man calls to tell me he wants a "reprint" on his business cards, "just a couple changes"
from the actual email I just received from him:
Leslie,
On the PH cards I would like to make some changes!
Can you put the picture of the Towers on both sides of the card and keep them the same size, Make my name so it stands out a little bit, put my name in all caps but the same size as the LAS VEGAS, But in a bolder font but not to out of character smaller and put it above my ID# on the card and change ID# to OPC #,take the WORK # off and the FAX # and Just put 702-***-**** on the bottom of the Towers put PH TOWERS by WESTGATE in RED instead of Black, or put PLANET HOLLYWOOD TOWERS by WESTGATE in Red or in BLUE what looks better? Where my name used to be, but put it in BOLD so it looks nice centered at the top of OPC #. Put Weds.- Sun.8am-4pm Hours of operation or however it sounds good or what you might think sounds good and put that under my OPC #, Lets see how that looks first, on the front of the card? On the backside of the card put Greeter Name with a line attached to it so I can put the name of the greeter on that line and then anther line that says Greeter ID# you can put this info sideways on the card like the front and the I need you to please put the wording in OPEN HOUSE TIMES on this which are 9:30am,11:00am,12:30pm, 2:00pm, 3:00pm and add these times to it, well thank you Leslie for your time and I will be awaiting a proof of the changes.
Regards
John
WHAAAAAT????
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Commenting on this Forum topic is closed.
I would LOVE to see this final mush that is put together!
... its mush before I even begin ...
http://www.ccprintinglv.com
You need to gently guide your client into creating a postcard or flyer for all that data. What she wants is no longer a biz card. :) More work for you and will ensure her biz card doesn't become a jumbled mess.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
Ahhh... if only it were that easy. I gave up gently guiding-suggesting-commenting, anything to this client long ago. I've even gone so far as to create the card how I thought it would look best only for him to tell me "none of this is what I told you to do, this isnt what I wanted at all!
I eventually "gently" told him to find another printer (under the advice of my boss). they couldnt put up with him either, and he came crawling back. Priceless!
for customers like him we simply call ourselves "Give Em What They Want Graphics"
LOL
http://www.ccprintinglv.com
Okay, then be firm. Show him a great example of what a biz card is and what a flyer is, which is what he's really asking for and offer him an estimate to create what he really needs, not what he thinks he needs. Explain firmly what a biz card is and what it does. Explain firmly what a postcard is (or whatever type of piece you feel fits the bill).
If he doesn't listen, charge him so much that he leaves of his own accord. You don't have time for clients like this who not only choose not to heed your professional advice but also don't pay for the privilege of ignoring it and wasting your time.
If you continue playing his game you will just lose money/time on the deal.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
maybe suggest one of those folded business cards if they are stuck on that size... I hear you though, i have had a few of those.. that are stuck in their ways.. you just need to bite down and pretend like you never had any part to do with it...
you could send all the graphics and a microsoft word doc so he can play with all the "clipart" and put it together the way they want!
Hi Leslie,
Put my name right above my phone #.
Put 2 towers on the front of the card 1 on the left side 1 on the right side.
Put PLANET HOLLYWOOD TOWERS by WESTGATE in RED where my name used to be.
Put my name underneath, like where my phone # is know, make my name same size font as the address, but bold it and we will look at that. Only my name BOLD
Put my phone # under my name, then my OPC # , then my e-mail.
Put a space then the address at the bottom where the hours of operation are. and put hours of operation on the back side of the card.
The greeter name and all that looks good on the back, I do not think I need the Tower on that side of the card, just the hours of operation added to it. Even if you put the hours of operation sideways, put where the tower was that you put on the back or what you think will work.. I hope you got that. It is hard to explain to you how to do it in writing. But I think we are getting there. Thank you again Leslie
Regards
John
hahahhahahahahaha! todays headline... Graphic Designer Goes Postal!
http://www.ccprintinglv.com
Like I said, this client is not worth it unless you communicate with him that he needs to create a new design piece entirely.
[edit: Or am I just taking this post WAY too seriously? he he]
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
He is basically telling you how to do your job. Why did he even hire you? He should have just gone to Kinko's and requested all of this crap. I have had MANY clients like this before. It sucks!!! It makes me feel like a typist, and not a graphic designer.
Why do they tell us how to do our jobs???
suzanne maestri-walters :: graphic designer :: www.onegirlcreative.com
--------
"I am not sick. I am broken. But I am happy as long as I can paint." ~ Frida Kahlo
www.onegirlcreative.com
Because they know how to use Powerpoint so graphic design must be easy, right? :)
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
many people see designers as computer jockeys who know the software. those are clients i don't care to deal with any more. and i hope that triple one doesn't have to for long, either. as clients go, people like that are not only a PITA to deal with, they also generally undervalue your work, so they don't want to pay you that much, and usually end up driving your rates down even further by trying to nickel and dime you to death.
Nowadays the market is saturated with people that want to be designers. People that got a degree because they were bored. With so many "designers" we get more people willing to do their first few jobs for virtually nothing. And since there is so much fresh blood, companies seek it out to save a buck. I think this contributes to the decline of the value of our services.
and i say this with the understanding that i don't have a design degree (yet)... but there are plenty of people with no degree, no formal training, and little experience (but some software skills) who call themselves designers.
i remember when i started, i was that person. thing is, i inhaled information as much as i could. it was pre-worldwide web, so i spent time on the desktop publishing forum on compuserve and read what people had to say every day. i looked at magazines. i talked to other designers. it took me a while before i really "got it." and eventually (when i got away from the 60 hour a week job), i went back to school. about done with an AA and will move on to a BA when that's done (one class at a time at night).
but so many people jumping onto the "graphic design bandwagon" now just don't have either the desire to learn, the wherewithal to learn, or just don't have the talent to do it. or some combo of the three. i try to be more open than most designers to the non-art/design student in the field, because i know where i came from. but i recognize that element in the field who just don't "get" design. i found it very frustrating in many of my classes to see people who just don't have an eye at all and muddle their way through. especially when i could see they just weren't putting the time and effort into it.
*sigh*
I went to Brooks College Long Beach, people came from all over the US and even from other countries. It was the most popular tech school of its time; Now it's closing. When I attended Brooks about 5-10% of the students came with a passion for Art and Design. The rest were there because they knew how to use a computer or liked drawing and saw it as an easy way to get a degree, a lot of them had parents that could afford to just throw money away on their kids. In my class there were two students at the top me and and this other girl. We both got A's in all our classes and anyone could tell you that we loved what we were doing. She lived a bit far away and commuted i lost contact with her after we graduated. I knew the value of an education, and the dollar. I went to school every day ready to learn and was excited about doing something new. And when i was bored and finished all my work I helped others. I really miss that its rare that I find a designer with the same passion. I notice there are quite a few on here though. I keep looking to design associations near me and it seems that they aren't kept up very well. People like us really need to network and stick together it's really the only way we can make it. I've learned a lot just posting on here and exploring how other designers think. This thread is getting long i think ill close with this -
I've been told "it's never too late for a career change and your still young enough to make it easy to find something that your more passionate about" I don't think there is anything, I think maybe lately my passion has just been stifled by my current work situation...
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
the first card we printed was to "sponsor" his 1998 mustang.
quite a character.
anyhow, here is version 1 & 2 of the card. Im posting these because I want to show what all his gibberish amounted to. this is not meant to critique because its HIS card, how HE wants and thats all he cares about.
lol, and yes Nato, you are taking it way too seriously ;)
but he gets me in an uproar too, so i totally understand!
http://www.ccprintinglv.com
Yeah, I thought so. :) I just hate it when our clients try to tell us how to do our jobs. We go to school to learn this and have experience, why pay someone and then not trust their expertise?
The powerpointization of design. :)
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
. . . did you roll around on your canvas naked covered in paint?"
or
"Did you draw any naked hot chicks in those life study things?"
OR
"How about those bowls of fruit?"
SIGH
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
Ha ha ha ha!
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
Life Drawing 101. What a titillating experience that was.
Never had to roll around naked in paint at art school, but did have to draw the proverbial fruit and naked people.
ttfn!
3dogmama
"Art -- the one achievement of Man which has made the long trip up from all fours seem well advised." - James Thurber
one of the models in my life drawing class was my ex-brother-in-law and his hot stripper girlfriend.
talk about awkward...
http://www.ccprintinglv.com
Yeah. That would have been awkward. Where to look and should you do him a favour and emphasize one of his key features?
My school must have been on a budget; we never sketched anyone hot. All we had was a chick that liked to blow big bubbles while bobbing her head to the tunes her headphones were playing, and my friend Ian.
ttfn!
3dogmama
"Art -- the one achievement of Man which has made the long trip up from all fours seem well advised." - James Thurber
Thanks for the great laugh. ;)
I dont understand having the two buildings! haha is he one of those guys if he has one sticker on one side of his car he has to have it on the other side as well?... probably...
that would be WRONG!
who cares, he loves it, im done. one change left, and its another nightmare in the books! latest email: (id be done already, but i DID forget to put that in red... lol)
Hi Leslie,
The card looks great! Can you do 1 thing and put PLANET HOLLYWOOD TOWERS by WESTGATE in RED ink,
Everything else looks good but let me see it in RED first, and then I will decide. Sorry I did not get back with you earlier as you know I do not get off work until 4:00 and you are already closed by the time I get home. Thank you again
Regards
John
http://www.ccprintinglv.com
"Got your voicemail. Thanks for checking in.
Overall, like the concept that plays off of our tri-fold brochure. Given the
short timeframe, we'll go with the concept. Here¹s some changes to work
with.
1. Front: See attached mock-up. We want to replace the woman on the front
with a spring forward/time graphic and accompanying text. Your artist should
be able to grab the graphic from the attached files.
We still want the offer text and boxes on the right.
2. Front & Back: Logos: Fix the gold border thickness. It's thinner than it
should be.
3. Front: Change the tagline "Solving Your Need For Space & Supplies" to 90%
horizontal scale and make the words "Space" and "Supplies" 50% gold fill. I
used Futura Std, Heavy Oblique.
4. Front: Modify the text next to the phone number to read, "For more
information or to make
a reservation, call or go online:". I used Futura Std, Heavy. Follow it with
the phone number and website URL as in the mock-up.
5. Front: Give the phone number a white fill and yellow stroke.
6. Front: Website URL, I used Futura Std, Heavy, 90% horizontal scale, 50
tracking.
7. Front & Back: Modify the "$1" offer to read "$1 Pays Your First Month's
Rent!"
8. Back: Coupons: Make the expiration line "Hurry! Offer Expires 12/31/2008"
9. Back: Coupons: Modify the offer footnote text to "*Some restrictions
apply. Ask for details."
10: Back: Coupons: Modify the REF# to 080300-DMPC-FDA.
Let me see a new mock-up with these changes.
Also
I need our tri-fold brochure in PDF format so we can e-mail it around and probably put it on our website as a download, too. Please ask your art dept. to export/convert it to EPS and e-mail to me. Try to keep as much of the text and vector items intact as possible. I have tools here to massage it down to size and make it into a PDF but want to start with as good an export from the original file(s) as possible."
If it’s easier, have them give me a call to talk it through.
------------------------------------------
This guy first recreated the entire front of my postcard in an incorrect size and format and then tells me to make mine like his and pull artwork from his. And then has the nerve to say if its easier i can call and tell you how to make an EPS?!?!?!?!?
If he believes his design is so much better then why not just send me a final and let me prep it for my press?!?!?
This is just a snippet of this guys changes the tri-fold was a nightmare a total of about 12 rounds of changes each one being twice as long as what i previously quoted...Plus this is only the first round of changes there are many more to come then 11 other locations to do with the same design and different info.
I love the "50% gold fill"
Love to see how that came out
Make sure to always charge for extra changes/time.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
This isn't a problem endemic to clients alone. I've had OTHER artists (suppliers) email me with just as much 'crap' as clients do. "Please make the billboard curves and 300 dpi at full size mock up. Illustrator layers in Photoshop. . ." etc. What the problem is is the ability to communicate. People almost NEVER re-read anything they write and the result is a constant run on of information as it comes out of their brain. Secondly they lack the 'vocab' that we are accustomed to so in their world what they are saying makes PERFECT sense ("why didn't you jazz up that section using exciting colours but keeping the same color scheme? It was simple request!")
Never mind the Bollocks. . . email is the WORST medium for anyone to convey information accurately. When you get the email, calling the client/supplier should be the next logical step. If you can meet with said person let him SHOW you what he wants. I always hated clients giving me "drawings" of what they want but unfortunately they learned a LONG time ago that that's the ONLY way they will get what they want. . . hey garbage in-Garbage out. . .:)
I do it and get paid and thank God I have SOME clients who will let me do it my way and trust me. . . the others. . . well. . . heh
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
I would be careful about posting too much information about this client, or you may not have to worry about them any more. Or maybe deep down, that is the end goal....
is to just say, 'thanks, but no thanks.'
but it's easier to talk about it than to do it. but that's got to be a goal of your own business... to be so busy that you don't have to take work you don't want to do.
I could turn down a client or tell them my way or the highway. And if this was for my business I would most certainly if i couldn't find an easier way to do it. But I work for the ad company thats doing this, I'm the "Art Director" but really I'm just a ProductionGraphicsSecretaryClerk. And charging extra I would so do that for this kind of bull.. Again my boss doesn't really charge for design he charges for printing, thats where he makes his money on the quantity and the small markup. On Postcards we say design included... and on Doorhangers we charge a max of $300 min of $100 and it never ever goes above 150 because and i quote the salesmanagerofoperations "they are a good client and they give us alot of business so i don't want to charge them too much; this is a flat fee we are talking about not hourly.
Thats funny, my boss is EXACTLY the same.
I work in a small commercial print shop, was hired on as a designer/office manager/salesperson/customer service rep, lol.
He has REPEATEDLY told me "i dont make any money on design, i make money on the presses"
i say "thats because you wont LET me charge for design!"
Ive worked here for 4 years now, love my old (76) grumpy boss to death, and I have job security for life...
Now, if any good design work comes in, I just tell clients that I think will be interested: "we dont typically offer design in house - but heres my card!"
Boss is happy because Im free to answer phones and deal with the BS customers like "John" and Im happy because i make a lot of money on the side!
(not to mention he gets all the printing anyway!)
http://www.ccprintinglv.com
Your boss sounds like a nice person... Mine is a MICROMANAGER of the worst Degree and I don't get paid the average salary for a graphic designer period. Let alone all the other jobs I do. I have to do the design on my salary nothing more. my boss is a control freak that doesn't like confrontation and only comes in once a week and communicates with me the manager of operations and our other designer over the phone and e-mail. He is cheap... at first it seemed like oh he is just a penny pincher NO he is CHEAP. However if i ask for more ram or a new monitor there is no problem. But if i suggest a new means of protocol or policy he can't have it even if i can prove it would be more effiecient. He is scared to death of change and being wrong, he is cold and the only thing he knows is money. And that would be fine if he atleast paid me what a graphic designer makes i have 6+ years of experience and 3 of them have been here.
I am looking for a new job now... But if he just changed the way some stuff was done it wouldn't be so bad here. I might stay a little longer if he made some kinda effort. And the manager of operations omg he is his protege his sickophant butt munkie - in some cases worse than him. Also my boss tried to offer the other designer a Sales position(in addition to design) on several occasions but would always say I dunno when he asked what his commission would be?!?!?!?!!? Who the hell takes a job without knowing the percentage... apparently the manager of operations... what a tool. This is near criminal in my opinion doesn't every person on commission know what their percentage is
?!?
sigh...
Run some numbers by him. Compare what you'd make on clients like this to the ceiling he's comfortable charging. Multiply those totals by jobs per year and show him the difference.
He's only shortchanging his business by not charging clients what jobs are worth on a fair market value basis. Maybe you can help him see that with some cold hard numbers?
And yes, any salesperson worth their salt negotiates a percentage of sales. That's their incentive to do it in the first place! Anyway, this dood sounds like a real tool.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
lol jk.
that was probably one of the best vents ive read in a while! hope you feel a little better MC!
At one point, my very nice boss was in a very bad mood and told me if i wanted to be a graphic designer, i better start looking for another job!
i said THEN WHY DID YOU HIRE ME?
he said CAUSE I NEEDED HELP!
lol
... that was about 2 years ago. thats why i take all the big jobs home with me now ;)
http://www.ccprintinglv.com
a good vent and yes I do feel a bit better :) thanks.
I just got out of a meeting with him same dead ends... and my one concern about our previous talk was that he never asked me why i wanted to leave or asked what he could do to make me stay. All he said was that he wasn't thrilled about it and that he wanted me to keep my production up to what it use to be while i was still here.
I just asked him if he wanted me to stay and he said.
"Yea i want you to stay as long as you keep your production the way it was, ya know like the person i hired, - and I want you to want to work here".
How in the hell can I want to work here? After he says something like that. And i can keep my production up i never gave him 100% anyways because he doesn't pay me what I'm worth (he doesn't know this) and so the Best he has seen is like me running at 80%. So i guess I'll pretend to like it for now...
I dunno I feel like giving up I guess.
That sounds like a good idea actually never really thought of that; Thank You. And yes he is...
We designers always have to prove our worth in dollars when normally we are seen as a drain on a business rather than a benefit to it. Sales is highly regarded as a department because they contribute directly to the bottom line.
We designers do as well, it's just harder for us to quantify but it can be done. Ya just have to sell the salesman that your boss is (or thinks he is) and make it seem like it's his idea to charge more money. He'll thank you by then behaving, temporarily, like less of a tool. :)
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
We've talked about this before, the thing of charging what you're really worth and seeing what happens. Nine times out of ten, I find that the client will either immediately walk, saving me the agony of being nickled-and-dimed to death, or they cheerfully fork over a huge deposit and pretty much do whatever I say.
It seems to me that clients have a rough idea of what the "going rate" is for design, and if you come in so far under that they leech onto you just to save money, you're asking for the kind of trouble that's being exposed in this thread. The client will not respect you, will heap extra work, changes, etc. on you because in the long run it's costing them less than going with the high-priced spread, and everybody loses.
A boss who thinks that holding onto a cheap repeat client is worth eating into the company's profit margin and grinding down the spirit of his employees is a boss who will himself be looking for work pretty soon.
Now, let me see if I can fine-tune this proposal to reflect everything I just said. Wish me luck! :-)
Mara
Good luck! Or as they say in spanish, Buena suerte. :)
I can see we're in agreement again on this client thing. Of course!
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
and I'm sure it would work... But my Boss is not worth it, he is clearly broken and doesn't understand Human emotion. I will continue my job search while all my attempts to improve my current job fail miserably when met with the same answers over and over again.
If I didn't live in Cali I could afford to take a step down the ladder and get paid less. But I'm getting paid less as it is heh... I might just try some numbers though. we'll see
Where in Cali? I'm in So Cal near TJ. :)
You should check out www.indeed.com. Great job site. If you're near LA I have an old boss working for a company up there looking for designers. Let me know.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
But I'd work anywhere at this point. And i'll check out that site for sure.
& Thanks I appreciate all that everyone has posted on here I'm feeling alot better now :)
My g/f says i should feel sorry for my boss since his parents never loved him and all he knows is insecurity and money as a bandaid. To which I replied I'll feel sorry for him once i leave lol... for now I'll just try not to go off on him.
if he's not taking it out on you.
for sure
MC -I had a boss like that once upon a time ago. A micro-managing perfectionist. Had to have her hands in EVERY design or it just wasn't ever good enough.
The worst was when a mistake was made... she'd flip out over the STUPIDEST things. Like a typo on a web site that would take only five seconds to fix.
Instead of fixing it, we'd have to stop everything and hold a two hour-long company meeting over "HOW" this mistake was made. WHY did it happen! How could you let that happen! It makes us look bad!!!! Well what do we do in the future to make sure it never happens again? I want your guarantee that this will never happen again!!!
Honestly. How do you try to explain to a boss that you're a human being and prone to making mistakes every now and then.
And then after the dragged out tounge-lashing and belittling session, I'd then go on to the web page, change "teh" to "the" and post it in five seconds and be done with it.
You think I'm kidding? Ooooh, i'm not kidding. I could see a flip out if it were some mass-produced print piece... but a typo on a web site??? Come ON!
I was SOOOO glad when I quit that job. Couldn't take it any more. And she short-changed all her employees, too. She'd always try to guilt you and tell you any time you requested a review for a pay increase "Well, I guess it's all about the money with you."
WHAT!?!?! And it's NOT about the money with YOU, Mrs. Business Owner?
Graaah.
Bad memories.
So glad I'm not working for a person like that any more. We're very comfortable with mistakes here at my job. We know they happen, but we fix them first, THEN discuss, and only if it's a huge ordeal. And even at that, a mistake isn't the end of the world unless you're constantly making them to the point that it's costing the company thousands of dollars every time to fix it.
I hate micro-managers.
KellyR,
You poor thing!! I can't imagine working for anybody that tyrannous. I hope you didn't work there too long, as I would be bringing the razor blades to work. Ugh!
suzanne maestri-walters :: graphic designer :: www.onegirlcreative.com
--------
"I am not sick. I am broken. But I am happy as long as I can paint." ~ Frida Kahlo
www.onegirlcreative.com
My goodness! That lady belongs in the bad boss hall of fame!
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Powerpoint is not a design application
flikWORLD Design
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Dirt and Rust
OMG how many times have I heard "How can we prevent this from happening again?" if i had a dollar...
He always complains about being stressed out and that things are tough on him... I can't believe he has the nerve to complain to me about how hard it is. I've watched him run his business for 3+ years now and I can say that he is the cause of all of his stress. At least I am learning how not to run a business, though most of it is obvious. And i have made suggestions to him on how to make things easier but he is deathly afraid of change and being wrong - and of course won't admit it.
One thing i will give him credit for is he use to go berserk when there was a mistake, i wrote him a letter about overreacting and being so negative and he stopped most of the yelling heh. I told him it was affecting my design and production levels (that sure shut him up quick)
Again it seems to me the only fix is to get out - which I am trying to do.
But it's a great thing when an employer knows your looking for a job and his only response is "Well while your still here I want you to keep your production up, I need some kind of guarantee that you will get your production back to the way it was when I hired you".
I've learned time and time again that the only people you can really change is YOURSELF. And sometimes that means the change is leaving the situation you're in!
Your boss sounds like a milder clone of my ex-employer. Milder, but not much better!
I worked with "Psycho Lady" (as I call her all the time now when I let my mind slip back to the past) for almost three years. When I left the company, I left with a BANG. I ripped her to shreds in my resignation letter, and took a couple of her clients with me.
Wasn't the best way to end things. Just created more hostility. She cyber-stalked me for a while and threatened to sue me over one of the clients I'd taken.
See, I was still playing the "control" game there. Trying to one-up her and spite her by taking her clients.
So - yeah - that's long in the past now. I'm glad I'm more over it all than not (except for when I think back to the downright emotional abuse she put me and her other employees through).
Not my problem any more. Don't work there, I have a great job and I live in Hawaii. And I really could care less how she'd feel about that or not.
Good luck to you in finding your next job. :) My advice is just to take the high road out, though, and not the low one like I did. You'll feel even better about yourself.
I'll keep looking.
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
beautiful place, but tres expensive to live there...
You mean you don't pay $7 for a half gallon of milk?
;)
No one ever said paradise was "cheap"!