I can't stress enough how much I realize this is the wrong approach to be taking as a professional designer. But the larger gains from keeping a smooth relationship with this client (who is a good guy but just doesn't realize...) is worth it in this case.

Well, does this client want a $100 logo or a $3000 logo that will make his company look professional and draw customers to his business? Does he think your time isn't valuable? You have to show him what your time is worth, as well as what the logo is worth to his business.

Hopefuly your client understands your value. If not, he's either not worth working for, you haven't done a good enough sales job, or both. Don't back down if he wants you to do a logo for next to nothing -- get what you deserve for all the applications as well! Having your logo all over town should cost him commensurately. You own your art until you sell it to him. Even the logos you do for him!

I went to the barber yesterday and she said something so great when a customer came in, wanted 'just some but not all of her hair cut' and didn't want to pay full price. The stylist said this in response and explanation:

I don't charge for what I cut, I charge for what's leftover afterwards.

Bloody brilliant!

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Powerpoint is not a design application

You maybe doing your self a disservice by trying to 'casually' mention to your client how your design process works. Just as you had to be educated about his business and his expectations of you, some clients need educating about the design process and all that it entails.

While many designers themselves are not the best sales people, try to explain the thought process' you go through to achieve your results. If you need to, show them research, (selected) development work, how you've had to consider the many different applications of the work, and how it fits into the bigger picture.

If you can show you have some knowledge or interest about (dare I say it) their brand identity and brand strategy, this should show them how much time an energy you've invested into the project, and get some sort of buy in from them.

Dealing with strong characters can always be tricky, but make sure you listen to them, and having worked with him before, there should be a good foundation of trust. You already have the perfect case study to cite as an example, with your previous work for them.

As for the break down of how to bill your work, there is no standard way of doing this, but there is a general consensus that if your client is going to take you seriously, they should be prepared to pay a percentage up front. As you know, you never want to get into the position where they come back to you with more work just because you're cheap, or have produced work for free.

A break down of the time spent on the project can be affected by many factors like the scale of the project, signing off process' and the clarity of the brief/requirements. How long does it take to develop a corporate brand? How long is a piece of string?!

Gathering information on a brand he can relate or aspire to could help tip the balance, but as the design process is not an exact science, I'm not sure how much information is out there regarding time and expence. Being such a competitive industry design firms usually keep this sort of information to themselves, and it would be too hard to generalise as different projects require different solutions, therefore no one size fits all.

So essentially: show him you know your stuff, after all he's come back to consult you. Trying to work out your worth is one of the hardest aspects of the design process, but once you do, stick to it.

Cheers, Ronk

You maybe doing your self a disservice by trying to 'casually' mention to your client how your design process works.

He doesn't sound very casual to me. :)

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Powerpoint is not a design application

Err, I'm not sure I understand you natobasso.

bigpicture say's towards the end that he wants 'something to show him casually in our discussions about it'

Bigpic has clearly given a lot of thought to his dilemma, and maybe should voice some of his concerns?

a quick thought off the top of my head...
do you have an older project that is similar in scope and price? if so, pull it out, show him all the work that went into it. that's why i keep my sketches and all the files from every project. Show him your own stuff, don't try to justify it by showing him something else that doesn't relate to you in specific! don't try to "prove" him about it, sell yourself.

I'm pretty sure you didn't mean the word "prove" that way even when you used it, but fact remains that you have to sell yourself. Show him the work you do when making a logo/website/letterhead/anything... if you can quantify your time as being spent on the project and tht you're dedicated to it, then he'll take it more serious...

best of luck, and please, keep us posted...
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Architectural Technician - Multimedia Designer
www.ArchMedia.us

Thanks for the comments and suggestions folks. He is a pretty intense guy. Overall, I don't have a problem justifying my work and what I charge for it, but this guy really lives for the agressive style of negotiation and has a way of starting out with jokes about how much he's already paid me. We're just starting to get to a point where I can joke back, and now I tell him straight out what my thoughts are on design style issues. I'm not very confident talking money though. I don't have much experience in that realm and find that I get quite uncomfortable talking about it, especially when we're speculating on work that hasn't been done yet. He'll diminish the importance of the work, while in the back of my head I know how big a deal it is. He doesn't quite get how significant a good logo can be for a strong brand identity...he seems to think its all about the way he works, and that identity won't realy matter for his business. If i can keep working the situation to my advantage (which I have so far been able to do), it will lead to much more work. I just want to establish a strong dollar value for my ideas.

The trickiest part of this situation specifically is that he has the logo idea in his head and claims that he doesn't really need me to design it, just replicate the idea that's in his head. And what he asks for does usually look pretty good in the end.

Anyway, there's no easy solution. I just need to be more upfront and confident discussing the price of my services. It's coming along....I think he's begining to understand how much my work has contributed to the high perception of his work so far, and how much harder it would be to find someone else to do all the things that I've done for him.

Thanks again for the comments everyone!
j.

Let your contract tell him the cost. It's a losing battle trying to convince someone of the efficacy of design. This guy sounds like the classic 'idea man' sales person; all bluster and not as much follow through. He's trying to get you to lower your price because he knows you're intimidated and he knows he needs you.

The trickiest part of this situation specifically is that he has the logo idea in his head and claims that he doesn't really need me to design it, just replicate the idea that's in his head. And what he asks for does usually look pretty good in the end.

If he's such a good designer, why doesn't he do it himself? The answer is, he can't. Use that to your advantage. Remember, this is business -- it's not personal.

And remember that if he doesn't like your terms and you guys can't come to a mutually beneficial arrangement, just walk away from it! If you have this in the back of your mind you can become a better, more confident negotiator.

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Powerpoint is not a design application

Read this, the Process of Setting Fees on AIGA.org. Might help you in this case.

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Powerpoint is not a design application