Logo Factory

When I was in college one of our profs described a factory where an assembly line of "artists" turned out works of art on a daily, mindless basis. One guy was good at drawing trees, the next one specialized in clouds, the next one hills, and so forth.

Personally, I wouldn't want a trademark from some logo-popping mill, and I think a company that takes any form of pride in themselves would prefer to work with a designer. A logo is a very personal statement and a reflection of who / what the company stands for. I think this is one of the reasons designers struggle with their own trademarks.

Unfortunately, factory-made can be manufactured for a much lesser price than a custom-made piece. But which do you prefer to display with pride? The Matisse or the K-Mart special?

ciao
3dogmama

Agreed. You get what you pay for. If a client wants his/her company to look like $250 bucks, then mission accomplished. :) A good logo builds a brand. It's memorable. It pays the client back many times over if created well and used effectively.

I always tell clients how much they value their company. That's what they should spend on their logo (within reason of course).

----
Powerpoint is not a design application

Talk about mindless.

The name alone implies mass-produced. I hate that term. I hate the term "factory" and like the above comments stated, you get what you pay for. It's a cliché, but guess what? A cliché isn't a cliché unless it's true. Am I sounding like a fortune cookie yet? LOL

I would like to think that companies like this won't put us out of business. It's like there's the Wal-Mart customer, and there's the Nordstrom customer. Obviously, there's a difference between the two, but some can't afford the latter, so they have to shop at the former. Perhaps the same is true for good logo design/graphic design? Or am I just really out of the loop here?

suzanne maestri-walters :: graphic designer :: www.onegirlcreative.com

Hi guys,

I have been browsing this forum and there are some really creative people here. I was wondering if any of you could give me any feedback on my logo.
You'll find it on my site adaid.com.au.
We are relaunching the site and redesigning the logo and business cards.
Any business card ideas are welcome.

Thanks In Advance.

Though, if you'll indulge me, should probably correct several things. In terms of 'unlimited resources', The Logo Factory's actually a fairly small company - anywhere from 4 - 10 designers plus a few scheduling and accounting staff. Our website sometimes makes us look larger than we are. There are times when that's beneficial. Times when it's not.

Regarding the name itself, I started The Logo Factory back in 1996 after several freelance business attempts had failed abysmally (against all advice, I even started a magazine. Almost lost the house over that one). I'm actually a classically trained illustrator (left college in 1980 to work as a designer) but always gravitated, mostly by client request, to logo design. The Logo Factory was a natural extension of that and developed over several years, starting around 1993. The name didn't have any negative connotations back then, it was a simple and descriptive term for a one-man design shop that specialized in logos. It was cool and unique at the time. Maybe not so much today. On the other hand, while the name may aggravate designers, it does seem to resonate with clients - the point of the matter.

In any case, I'm stuck with her now. For better. Or Worse.

In terms of comparing Wal-Mart vs. Nordstrom, you may have a point. Trouble is, clients looking for the Nordstrom of design aren't generally working with freelancers either - they work with agencies and/or brokers in a fairly closed networking 'loop'. Outfits that impress would-be clients with lobbies full of marble and fern and win gigs by picking up the tabs of $500 lunches. And then ship out the actual design work via the back door to freelancers or shops like mine. In fact, most freelancers use this theme as marketing their services - Ie: cheaper than agencies because they don't have the overhead. Conversely, if somebody wants to market themselves as the Nordstrom of design, then they better have the bells and whistles that goes with.

In terms of pricing - that's a reality of marketing on the internet. Quoting individual jobs isn't practical (our website has about 3,000 uniques a day) and we'd spend all of our time answering the #1 question - "how much?". Trouble is, we often get blasted by potential clients for being too expensive - to be sure there's lots of logo websites that are much cheaper - but economic realities being what they are, we can't supply services for any less, without knocking something out of the equation. Then we get it from designers who claim we're the Wal-Mart of design. Sometimes you just can't win.

Regarding our work (some of it my own) lacking life, what can I say? Sorry you feel that way. I've always been proud of the work we do - like everyone else, I sometimes look back at some of our older stuff and shudder (should have done that, should have done this). Certainly, we all have room to improve and hone our craft - even after being at it for almost thirty years, I still have a great deal to learn. Do appreciate the 'professionally rendered comment' though. At least that's something. For what it's worth, our work has been featured in many design books, some of them fairly high profile. Overall, we're like everyone else - can't hit every gig out of the park. But sometimes we do.

Someone upstairs commented that "The Logo Factory has forgotten to factor in the person-to-person contact and team development synergy". While I probably wouldn't use the phrase 'synergy' to describe anything (at least while discussing cliches) you'd find that we have lots of person-to-person contact with clients. In fact, there are days that seem we've done little else. Having an open-concept studio, we also bounce ideas around on pretty well everything we do. You'd probably find we conduct business the same way most other designers do, just like when I was a solo freelancer - albeit with a little more 'front office'.

We're a little more automated in communication, but still spend a great deal of our day on the phone discussing this, or that project, or trying to convince a client why some mad design scheme they've had isn't a good idea. Granted, many of our clients are remote (that's a benefit of the internet, not a hindrance) but we still meet face-to-face with clients who happen to be in the area. Funny thing is, even local clients are leaning towards e-mail and phone because it's more convenient for them. At the end-of-the-day, I've always thought of my shop as utilitarian in nature. Whatever it takes to get things done - 'in the trenches' training from my earlier, not so-successful, days.

Somebody also posted a comment - "Imagine working for a company like this". I'd hope to think that it isn't all that bad (though I've been called an dick from time-to-time). All our artists work full-time, in-house and I've had designers work for me for 10, 8, 6 years at a stretch. As we're a smallish company, we can't pay fantastic wages, but pay, and benefits (medical) are decent. All of it based on overall cashflow. Work load can get heavy, but nothing unmanageable. When things get out of hand, we hire more people.

Your issue shouldn't be with companies like mine - you should be able to convince your clients that your services are better, more interactive, etc. You can set up a website, market yourself, and take business away from shops like mine. That's fair game. Trouble is, and more increasingly, you're going to be competing against so-called 'crowd-sourcing' where, unless you're the winning designer in some glorified contest, you won't get paid at all.

Won't make much difference to me (old fart that I am) but it does worry me for kids who are in design college now. Including mine.

At least, that's my particular grumble at the moment.

Steve Douglas
The Logo Factory
Blog

How do I respond? I generally disagree with the premise. Our average logo project bills out at around the same price as what I was charging small companies, as a freelancer, back in the 90's. And that was when I designed logos with ruling pens, bainbridge board and rubylith. Desktop technology allows me to work much faster. It's all relative give and take.

In terms of where the 'bar' is - it's currently being set far lower than we can compete against, so I do understand. I can't compete with outfits who charge $99 and advertise 'unlimited revisions' but unfortunately, that's the nature of any competitive, and crowded, market. It's up to us to convince people we're better than them (admittedly easier said than done). And it's up to you to convince people that you're better than us. And ad agencies to convince their clients that they're better than you.

Agencies that I've worked at used to carp about the exact same issues - only the people pushing down their bar were freelancers. Especially when desktop technology became more available, and more importantly, less expensive, allowing designers to set up shop in their basements. The price ranges have expanded, but the basic premise has remained unchanged.

The internet has thrown a whole new wrench into the deal, some refer to it as 'globalization', and it's happening right across the creative industry. I've friends who are photographers who used to sell stock images for thousands, depending on usage, now seeing stock photo sites selling quality images for five bucks a pop. I know a couple of friends who had to close up their shop because of online print companies that charge $10 for 250 full color business cards. With the amount of time we put into a lot of our projects, I'd much rather charge a few grand - and to be honest, we sometimes still do - but to a large degree, those days are over.

In terms of No-Spec, I'm very familiar with the site and the concept. In fact, one of my articles - are logo contests even legal - has been featured on the front page for almost a month.

S.

I must say, in regards to both of your rebuttals, I must agree with your logic. I hate to admit it, but you're right. Mostly because MY business is also done globally. Unfortunately, I don't have the means to advertise locally—other than using FREE Craig's List—and networking is hard to come by unless you have a hand full of clients already. It's like a double-edged sword. You can't make new clients unless you already have some. Even though I do have a few locally, they're not lucrative enough for me to survive.

Let's face it, I have made more money and have acquired more clients just through my auctions on eBay. I hate to admit it, but it's true. Not from my measly logo auctions—that's just the tip of the iceberg—but from an "advertisement" through eBay. It's like advertising. People see my auction, they see my samples, and hopefully go to my website to view my extensive portfolio and they contact me outside of eBay wanting to know if I design this or design that. It has been awesome for me! I have clients all over the world as a result of this—Australia, South Africa, U.K., Japan, New Zealand, Canada, Malaysia, and of course, throughout the U.S. I'm thrilled that there is the advent of globalization, because without it, I would be screwed. Especially since I have been laid off from my job since December, and can't find anything!!! So this helps me contribute a little bit here and there towards our finances.

I would give my right arm—thankfully, I'm lefthanded LOL—to have nothing but local clients. I really would. I love the advantages of meeting my clients face-to-face, because unfortunately I don't have that advantage when dealing with them strictly via e-mail. Occasionally, I get a client who wants to call me and speak with me personally on the phone. Obviously, I welcome that as it makes my job that much easier to get a feel for them personally.

So even though I was one of those "haters" from above, I must say, I have to concur with Sdouglas' comments regarding his business. They make total sense. Sorry!

If anybody has ANY ideas how I could get some local clients/work, PLEASE enlighten me as I am all ears!

Mmmmm...these words are delicious, BTW. =P

suzanne maestri-walters :: graphic designer :: www.onegirlcreative.com

Suzanne - no offense taken. Though I appreciate your response a great deal. Thanks too, for giving me an opportunity to tell my 'side'.

Now, I gotta get back at her - client's freaking out about an overdue Flash animation.

S.

Defn.:
Factory: any place producing a uniform product, without concern for individuality

Can't agree with your posturing methods, but if you struggled to put food on the table then I guess a guy (or gal) has got to do what they got to do. There aren't too many of us out there who are willing to suffer through the starvation stage in order to remain true to their beliefs.

What surprises me, though, is the failure of your previous freelance businesses--
"after several freelance business attempts had failed"
--yet the great success you found with only a name change. Had you or your skill sets changed, or do you think it had something to do with the less cost portrayal associated with the word "factory" and your putting in play of?

Or, was it maybe your way of approaching business--
"In terms of comparing Wal-Mart vs. Nordstrom, you may have a point. Trouble is, clients looking for the Nordstrom of design aren't generally working with freelancers either - they work with agencies and/or brokers in a fairly closed networking 'loop'."
--Your previous freelance businesses may not have failed had you strived to contact the Top Dogs. They don't bite, and in fact are open to working directly with the designer rather than passing through the hands of account managers. To assume that these large corporations deal only with agencies, you've already admitted defeat and lost out on some pretty lucrative business.

"if somebody wants to market themselves as the Nordstrom of design, then they better have the bells and whistles that goes with"
--No. If somebody wants to market themselves as the Nordstrom of design they better be able to deliver quality, top-notch design. Bells and whistles are for parades, clowns and dog handlers.

ciao
3dogmama

While I believe every business could benefit from a well researched, cleverly thought out logo, I don't believe that it is a necessity. If you can find one successful business in your area with a mediocre logo, then you will see this to be true.

Logo Factory has a niche. If you want the clients in that niche, go try to take them. Thats the beauty of capitalism. Its your right to try to take his business away from him.

As far as them lowering the bar, I don't agree. Secretaries with MS Publisher are lowering the bar. If you see a logo you believe to be substandard on that web site, then imagine what it would have looked like if they had tried to do it themselves...

I can totally appreciate both sides of the coin on this one—especially since I am in the shoes of a starving designer, if you will. However, there are many points that are not only relevant to what we ALL believe in, we MUST remember one thing? We do it to make a living, correct? Yes, if it means charging cheaper than what we KNOW is worth more simply to pay the bills, is that necessarily wrong? I guess it could go two ways.

Unfortunately for me, I live directly above a graphic design studio—a VERY good one. I live in a loft, so of course, it's fair game. Me? I'm all by myself—hence the business name. So believe me, they KNOW that there is no competition between them and me, but I do know one thing is for certain, I recently got a local client (which is hard to do in the northern Colorado market) and she told me that she loved my work and of course, loved my fees. They're just opening up their spa business in August, so they don't have a lot of cash flow to start out with. This is where I come in, hopefully.

I'm hoping just as my work gets out there, somebody will take notice and "inquire within." Perhaps I'm delusional. IDK. But since I technically don't have any overhead and work out of my own home, I am in the position to charge a lot less than these agencies and/or design studios. Shitty? Yes, but who would you pay the higher fees to—some local schmuck like myself with no brick & mortar space to show for it, or to quote the above, the place with all the "bells & whistles?" It's psychological, I'm afraid. Just like if Target was selling mascara for $7, and Nordstrom sold mascara for $22 because it was made by Lancome. Guess what? Psychologically, I buy the $22 mascara because of the bells and whistles with the packaging, the name, etc. Especially at the end of the day, it does the same damn thing as the $7 mascara. It's shallow, but that's the reality of it. I hate to compare graphic design to mascara, of course. LOL

All in all, I think we're all not playing nice by bashing The Logo Factory and its founder. I have to admit, I was one of those bashers from above. But I have learned in life—as well as this forum thread—that you cannot "judge a book by its cover."

I hate it when people judge a woman who has breast implants but when they find out she has those implants because of a mastectomy, all of a sudden it's OK in their eyes? Guess what? Who the hell cares WHY she got breast implants—the end result is, she got them because she wanted to feel better about her appearance. So basically what I'm saying is, who are we to judge???

My two cents. Sorry for the rambling and the BS comparisons! Just trying to be a good little blogger.

suzanne maestri-walters :: graphic designer :: www.onegirlcreative.com

I honestly don't feel victimized by what is to me just a design firm that specializes in logo design. That is ALL they are. It's like my getting upset over ACE Hardware for selling hammers and nails. It's what they DO.

My sympathies to the artists working for S. Douglas who got to read that to some freelancers, their design work is considered sub-par simply because they're working for a logo design company that has the word "Factory" in their name.

This is just too much "us versus them".

I agree that if you want to talk about "lowering the bar" then point your attention to secretaries designing logos in Word and Powerpoint.

I'm sure every person working at Logo Factory has the same level of design skills as most of us here - it's just that they'd rather work a full-time job as an employee instead of hacking it out on their own as a freelancer.

Freelancing is NOT easy. You have many shoes to fill in that role: salesperson, accountant, owner, designer - just to name a few. Not everyone is cut out for that kind of work.

Would you apply the same criticism to Go Media? I mean look at them - they pump out vector design kits like crazy, and relatively cheap, too - where if someone came to you as a freelance artist and asked you to design a bunch of swirley curl vector images, you'd probably charge them a prime hourly rate. But I don't see that same criticism leveled at them - is it because they don't only specialize in vector images? Does that make them "better than"?

Really interesting reads here.

You've all a right to your opinion, but I'm with S. Douglas and a couple others here. If Logo Factory has you feeling insecure as a Freelancer, take a look within and figure out why that is and then do something about it instead of complaining.

It's like my getting upset over ACE Hardware for selling hammers and nails. It's what they DO.

Kind of apples to oranges dontcha think?

Here's how I see it: It'd be like Walmart selling cds for $.01 each thereby driving everyone else out of business; even though they don't make the profit they could be making on that item. In fact, they do that now -- they sell cds at a loss to get people in the store to buy bigger purchase items.

Now iTunes just surpassed Walmart for total music sales, but I think that's due in large part to low overhead (only server storage; no shipping or packaging to deal with). And they've managed it with a brilliant, consistent and expertly designed UI. I don't think that UI is worth $200. :)

I agree with you to a great extent in your argument that 'to each his own'. But in a debate 'It is what it is' and 'stop complaining' don't hold much water with me. We can't put our heads in the sand on this issue because it affects all of us designers.

I'm not outraged with Logo Factory, they can keep doing what they do. Well done. But I do see a problem down the road with the Commoditization of design. Just as folks with degrees in typesetting now have different jobs (as their old jobs have disappeared), will we find ourselves, as graphic designers, out of a job in 5 to 10 years because the market wants it cheap and fast but with no regard to quality?

I think this is the issue that's being highlighted here: Design as Commodity. Our work is becoming a commodity as is creativity. Just look at mashups and remixes. Not much new under the sun these days because it all comes from the same source.

It's just economics, but it still concerns me; at the very least from an aesthetic perspective and at the worst from a job-security perspective. I've switched to web design to get ahead of the crushing wave of new designers in the print realm, but I don't think I've spared myself from this Commodity issue.

I deal with it by further diversifying which further dilutes my art.

----
Powerpoint is not a design application

There's no complaining.
There's no misinterpretation of taking one literally.
There's no insecurities.
There's only my opinion about an unavoidable ripple effect.

ciao
3dogmama

I think there are morals being discussed here, and that's all I see.

There are some "fine artists" out there who feel us graphic artists are debasing the world of art, too. Whoring out our skills to the corporate beasts for cheap. It's just morally reprehensible to them. Should we stop what we're doing because they feel what we're doing is against their morals?

Okay, I'm beating a dead horse here - my apologies.

"Commercial art" was the big sell-out of the 50s and 60s. Now there are museum exhibits glorifying its virtues, not to mention the road signage of the 20s-50s (diners, Bowl-A-Rama type stuff), once thought vulgar and now the subject of nostalgia for the days when the average Joe appreciated the aesthetics of the marketplace. I suppose there were people in Michelangelo's time who thought the Pietà was schlock art. (Plastic reproductions of it are; the original isn't. Discuss.)

M

I think these guys are way better than Logo Factory..

But great thread guys!!

http://www.pixellogo.com/

I have used Logo Factory before to make shirts for my family reunion. I could not complain about anything, they came out perfect, but on the other hand a big company like Logo Factory is big competition for small companies that practice the same trait. But since we do live in the great USA you also have the same opportunity to become a large company as they have so you should use Logo Factory as an inspiration so that one day you can become as good or better then them. They are making a big impact on the design company cause now you do not have to leave your home to create shirts or any other product you may need for you own business at your convince. Perhaps small business should take in this idea and use it to there own advantage.