Newsprint question, Just out of curiosity
anna_h (12 pencils) | Thu, 2010-02-04 21:42Can anybody tell me, who works in some newspaper for ex. how you prepare data for print? I am not a pro Polygraph, I work as a graphic designer, design ads for people who wanna advertise with us, and huge part of my job is to prepare all ads for the magazine (printed on newspaper paper) and then to prepare the main layout for the print. Printing company always very unsatisfied with our work, but can not clearly explain WHAT to and how to do it (its a very not expensive printing company).
I do it like this:
1.Convert all incoming images into CMYK. In Photoshop or using PDF TOOLBOX give them Iso Newspaper 26v color profile. If its black and white images I change the mode to GRAY in Photoshop.
2. In indesign I place those images, all text I make 100% black with overprint (printing company condition).
3.Then I export from indesign to PDF with profile PDF/X-3:2002 with no color converting.
3.In acrobat check how thick the color is. Always not more than 240%...
So I would really appreciate if anybody could advice me some tips how to improve the proccess... What should I look at...
Thank you very much in advance.
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I'd be interested in exactly what they do not like about your work. Is it printing too dark? Too light? Everything you describe here sounds like you're spot on, provided the press is printing around 26TVI.
Since you're having a difficult time getting info from the press (likely because they have no idea themselves), you'll probably have to play Sherlock Holmes to figure out whats going on. If you have the means, this is what I would do.
1) Find out what the Dot Gain (TVI) is on press by measuring a control swatch. Don't ask. Measure it yourself with Spectro/Densitometer. Borrow one if need be.
2) Ask printer if they can recommend someones work they LIKE. See if you can open those files and find the embedded profile. You may find that it is "US Web (SWOP)" and the platesetter uses ICC/curves to create plates to compensate. I wouldn't be surprised if printers have no idea this is being done. A vender might have set them up and was unable to communicate what the system does, except that it 'works'.
3) Visit the print shop and have your salesman give you a tour and meet the prepress/pressmen. Hang out for the day. If you appear interested and absolutely clueless (non-threatening) you'll quickly figure out whats going on.
Good luck and keep us informed!
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
Thank you very much for your reply! The print itself is not too dark or too light. its just fine. The printers always complain how difficulut it is to deal with our "production" and that it is hard for them to print it... So, soon we are going to visit magazine, whose work printers LIKE... its just there working 15 designers and in our magazine... only two...
Alright. There is nothing difficult about the files themselves? Only difficult when on press? But prints fine?
Keep us informed. Looking forward to seeing how this resolves itself.
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
Prints are fine... I cant understand what is going wrong when they printing our files.... other litlle detail, I work on PC with RAM 8 GB... we produce 150 pages magazine every month...
It's a shame they will not provide you with the specs they require.
I work at a place that prints to newsprint, and we always provide our third-party designers with a list of specs in how we need their ads, along with our recommendations on what will create the best output for their ads.
• Preferred file format: PDF (PDF X-1a recommended). PDFs contain embedded fonts and graphics and significantly reduce the potential for production errors.
• 210 dpi (100 lpi for newsprint)
• 30% dot gain (Due to newsprint's high dot gain, sharpen photos and increase contrast more than you would for magazine ads to avoid a muddy look.)
• All ads including support art must be greyscale or CMYK. No spot colors or art submitted in RGB.
• Color tone photos 7 - 10% lighter than for magazine ads to compensate for darker newsprint
• Always make sure your ad is properly sized
I sincerely hope you can get ahold of someone over there who can explain to you exactly what the problem is that they're having when they work with your files. Is it crashing their machine? Will it not go through the RIP? Or is it all just issues once it goes to press?
Hey KellyR,
Specs are a very good thing.
I'd consider adding to your list an ICC Profile such as CGATS-SNAP-TR002-2007 if you're in America (characterization data can be found here http://www.color.org/registry/SNAP_2007.xalter) or the ISO Newsprint profile if in Europe. (http://www.ifra.com/website/website.nsf/html/CONT_CONS_DL?OpenDocument)
Using the proper profile would eliminate manual adjustments such as "Color tone photos 7%-10% lighter...increase contrast more...". All you have to do is tell the user to convert all images into this CGATS-SNAP-TR002-2007 space (like an RGB to CMYK or CMYK to CMYK conversion). Like any color space conversion, make them aware that pure blacks will need to be manually reset.
Also, it's interesting to note that 30TVI is considered to be an older newspaper specification. 26TVI is considered to be the norm today for newsprint. Still, there nothing more reassuring than using a reflective densitometer to check it yourself.
If you need help with any of this, contact me and I'll be glad to step you through.
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
Hi guys! The latest news are... the guys from that magazine said that there is absolutly no sence that we come to look how they work, cos they have software which costs like thousands of euros and we are not gonna actually learn anything... niccce...
The PDF Profile which printers highly recommend us is: PDF/x-3:2002. And color profile we always use is "iso newspaper 26v4"
The problem is that most of the ads are sent by the clients and those pdfs are very messy sometimes, sometimes it is not possible to "touch" the objects, or the photos are cutted on millions parts in pdfs and i am forced just to convert the whole thing to jpg and not to spend my time on dealing with this. Sometimes people sending us their ads as jpg images and we do crazy thing - making text in jpg image manually black in photoshop (printers idea, no words...)...
Other HUGE issue we are having is that perfectly made and checked ad (in pdf format) once being put into main layout in indesign and then converted to pdf getting messed up completly, black appears to be rich black, colors are too thick... its just madness...
Thanks for your replies!
"The problem is that most of the ads are sent by the clients and those pdfs are very messy sometimes, sometimes it is not possible to "touch" the objects,"
OK, I'm getting the sense that there is nothing wrong with the editorial content of your magazine and you're simply wondering how to handle non-spec artwork supplied by advertisers.
Yes, that's a problem. Three ways to handle this.
1) You manually edit the supplied PDFs as best you are able, even if you have to rasterize the entire ad in Photoshop, which results in rich blacks in unwanted areas. This, I believe, is what you're currently doing.
2) You purchase a rather expensive RIP system to transform supplied PDFs into a "iso newspaper 26v4" color space using a Device Link Profile (a special ICC Profile helpful with CMYK to CMYK transformations which leaves the black channel alone). This is probably what your competitor is doing.
3) Your company creates a policy to reject ads that do not meet "iso newspaper 26v4" separation standards. Yup. You just don't accept them.
The company I work for produces magazines for a few clients. We also produce and distribute ads for a client of ours to major publications in the USA. It is rare that ads produced by us are ever declined, but it happens occasionally. It's not a big deal to resupply the ad. If, however, it is impossible to ask advertisers to resupply their ads, there are a few tools that can make your life easier...
First of all, PitStop by Enfocus is an Acrobat plug in which gives you a variety of tools to directly edit your PDF file. You can select vector elements and replace their colors (Rich black to Pure black, for example).
Secondly, experiment with making CMYK separations directly from InDesign. That is to say, import supplied PDF into InDesign and export to PDF converting the colors to newprint profile. It's the same principle as rasterizing the supplied PDF in Photoshop *EXCEPT* you don't destroy your vector elements.
So, that's about all I've got right now. Nothing is easier than OPTION 2. There's a reason it costs a few thousand. However, if you need a hand with anything I've mentioned, let me know and I'll do what I can.
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
Welcome to real world production. If some of these clients knew what was going on behind the scenes with their stuff - they'd have a heart attack. I'll just add that everytime you distill a file to create a pdf (either thru acrobat or some other software program) you change the file to whatever settings are in the program (re)creating the file. Personally, I redistill every pdf file that's sent to me. It's a great way to not only check the accuracy of the file (ie: did they d/l the fonts correctly, etc...), but also to reset the file to my personal preferences for output.
Of course, by doing that, the pure blacks become rich black (Raster drop shadows, esp). Now, this isn't exactly a 'deal-breaker' for me so long as registration is good and the press is stable. Nine times out of ten, you probably won't know the difference.
However, pure black is used to ensure that these variables never give you a problem. Furthermore, you don't have to pay for a re-run of the clients ad if a problem arises (as problems tend to do). If you change client supplied pure black to rich, you're creating an exposure most shops wouldn't want to live with.
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
My blacks do not change to rich black when I do this.
Raster images when converted from color space X to color space Y will make all pure K to rick K. We must be talking about different things. Perhaps you're thinking about vector type? Dunno.
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
Now I see we ARE talking about two different things - miscommunication. By "pure black" I assumed you meant 100% black ink (since there is no black in the rgb color model). Same with the term "pure K"... K is only used to represent black ink in the cmyk color model (or "kosher" when it comes to food) as far as I know. Words have power... and usually it's the power to confuse. :-)
But back on point - now we agree. Yes - an object (raster or vector) created in rgb will translate to a rich black* in cmyk for the reason stated above. But that's going to happen no matter what program you use, so...
.
.
.
*Disclaimer: Assuming we are doing a straight translation without adjusting any application features to account for the rgb to cmyk translation of blacks. That's worth an entire thread all by it's lonesome (which I will not be involved in, btw:)
I whole-heartedly agree with setting rules on what kinds of ads you will accept from your clients. If they're not built to your specifications, you cannot accept them - they must fix and re-send.
In our process here, ALL ads sent to us (and 99% of them are PDF) get thrown into InDesign and RE-PDF'd to our own specifications.
This is where we can catch problems, too, such as ads using spot colors or rich black on small text and that sort of thing. If they send an ad in spot or RGB, we tell them they need to fix it and send it back. If we catch that they're trying to use rich black on fine text, we tell them to correct it.
Rarely do we take the "I don't want to bother" route and rasterize ads through Photoshop to fix problems. The majority of the time we educate our clients on how to send us ads built to the correct specifications.
We only insert our in-house PDFs of the ads into our publication. Not direct PDFs from clients. (Hope that made sense.)
>>"In our process here, ALL ads sent to us (and 99% of them are PDF) get thrown into InDesign and RE-PDF'd to our own specifications.
This is where we can catch problems, too, such as ads using spot colors or rich black on small text and that sort of thing. If they send an ad in spot or RGB, we tell them they need to fix it and send it back. If we catch that they're trying to use rich black on fine text, we tell them to correct it."<<
I do exactly same thing!!! ALL ads we receive we check and correct and Re-PDF and so on, without any exceptions... Can you imagine, two designers, 150 pages, on each page untill 16 ads. The magazine prints ONLY ads... So we can not afford such a thing as dealing for hours with someones PDFs which consists of two thousand layers and untouchable objects (sometimes pdfs are just insanely messy...) If we gonna say "Guys, send us good stuff with 100% black texts and so on" - those guys just gonna step back and we losing the client, cos most of them (id say 90%) have no idea what is RGB and CMYK... ;-))))
It's a little hasty to assume a client is going to refuse to advertise in your publication because you need them to submit their ads so they can be re-produced correctly. They're advertising in your publication because they feel it is viable to their target audience, and they are there because they WANT to be there because they feel it will help their business.
We deal with hundreds of ads every week - however, we have a decent staff on hand to handle this, as well.
We're broken down into teams where each team has a few sales representatives, an assistant and a graphic artist. The sales reps and assistants actually talk with the clients, even when it's about sending correct artwork. This works out very well because the sales rep has an established relationship with the advertiser and knows how to handle the client so there's not a risk of losing them.
You may consider requesting support from your sales staff when it comes to requesting correctly-formatted ads being submitted. Talk this out with your supervisor(s) or whomever would be in charge of implementing policy changes like that if it's not how you currently do things. It's just an idea.
The bottom line is you are telling your advertisers you're particular about how the ads are submitted because you want to ensure their ads come out PERFECT. If you emphasize that it is for their benefit and you are only concerned about making sure their ad turns out great, they're more likely to appreciate your rules. ;)
KellyR, how many people in your company actually preparing or creating ads? Cos, we have 10 sellers, 2 designers (me and my partner) and two bosses (owners), who are by the way also sellers and our supervisers;-)))))))) that's the whole team. unfortunatly, I do not see that our bosses will follow any policy, their job to sell as much as possible and anything like "lets ask clients to send us good stuff".. and "its in their own interest" will be taken like "maybe u r not good enough to make candy from shit?", im afraid;-)))
Everybody THANKS A LOT for all your kind replies, I really appreciate it!
It's a challenge, anna - but I think you can figure out which way to go by your bosses' attitude. If he's not open to the idea of educating the clients and making sure all the ads reproduce "perfectly" - then you should probably just fix them yourself and not worry about it. Clients who don't understand rgb/cmyk are not likely to know you're changing their ad anyway. Personally, I produce multiple publications every month. I've learned it's better to not send any ads back unless there is a font default or some other glitch that simply cannot be corrected on my end. The bottom line is print is all about putting dots on a page. If you worry that the manner in which you achieve that finished piece is "unprofessional" - well then, just keep it to yourself. If it's done right - nobody knows anyway. I can raster a file in Photoshop and print it right next to the vector version of the same ad and nobody would know the difference (that includes all the people on this board too). Don't worry so much about "rules" - as I like to say - there are none.
Great example of the metaphor that there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Lots of ways to skin a cat and lots of different cats too. The effort you put into a Penny Saver should not be equal to the effort you put into a coffee table book featuring Ansel Adams' photos - know what I mean? 99% of us work somewhere in the middle most of the time - so make some judgement calls. If the job warrants it - burn the midnight oil to make sure everything's perfect and done according to standard. But if it's a newspaper ad that's going to look like a train wreck either way - why give yourself a hernia over it? The client is expecting a train wreck.
guysss, you are making my day! such a pleasure to read your comments:-))))
I'll keep posting here:-)
This is a great thread. And it's got me wondering...
I'm wondering how the ads we produce and send to publications are received... we use inDesign to create all our ads, mainly for glossies in the uk.
I always just make sure the images are CMYK 300dpi etc... all black type is not rich black etc... The PDF setting setting we use is PDF X-1A, and the colour profile Europe ISO Coated FOGRA27.
Is this the standard? If not, how could we improve? Would these settings be ok for newsprint?
By the way - we have never had any issues from publications with our ads - I guess I'm just revisiting what we do in light of this thread really...
Any comments appreciated.
Miklad
'Keeps losing his mojo, then finding it again'.
Europe ISO Coated FOGRA27 is really *REALLY* not appropriate for newsprint. TAC (Total Area Coverage or Density) is 350% for FOGRA27 where newsprint is closer to TAC240%. Also, TVI (Tonal Value Increase or Dot Gain) for FOGRA is around TVI18% where newsprint is TVI27%.
As for European Publication ads, if they are anything like USA SWOP, this seems very high as well. On the other hand, I'm American so I just shooting from the hip on this one.
However, best practice, as always, is to get the specs directly from publications, usually found on their website. For instance...
http://ads.hearst.com/hearstadspecs/cards/cos.html
You'll see Cosmopolitans states which ICC Profile you should separate your ads into. 'SWOP2006_Coated5' which can be found on the IDEAlliance website (http://www.idealliance.org/industry_resources/branding_media_and_color/swop/resource/swop_downloads).
Hope that sheds some light on the subject.
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
Perfect example of ads that are being manipulated at the publication. If you're not having any problems with pdfs set for glossy paper and high ink density when they go to newsprint - obviously someone is altering the files on the back end. Which is not a necessarily a problem, btw - as I said before, this is standard operating procedure at most publications.
Aha.... cheers for the heads up guys.
Appreciate it.
Miklad
'Keeps losing his mojo, then finding it again'.