Opacity Over Rich Black Printing Question -- HELP ASAP!!!
Hi. I'm sending a job to print (web offset), and the client wants to have a symbol ghosted in the background....The background is a rich black mixture (65/58/57/90)...and right now I have the symbol (white) at a 10% opacity....it looks fine on screen, but I'm scared that in the magazine it will be too dark or light....
Is 10% good, or should I go more or less?
Thanks so much
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Your printer will tell you
Your printer will tell you what the dot gain is on the paper they'll be printing on. If they're a 24/7 operation, maybe there's somebody who could help you right now. But it seems to me that the for ghosting the symbol against the rich black background, you'd want like a, 80-90% screen of the background build. The 10% opacity (I assume you mean 10% of the background build, since there's no such thing as 10% of white) will be almost like reversing out entirely rather than ghosting. In any case, the paper's dot gain will make a huge (HUGE) difference, really critical. Good luck!
Mara
thanks for your quick reply
DOT GAIN is 20%.......
The way I have it set up now, In illustrator, I have white set at 10% opacity....over the rich black...is that enough?
Should I set up the file differently? (screen back the background to 90% or xx%?
Maybe it's too late to chime
Maybe it's too late to chime in on this follow-up question, but I see no advantage to printing "10% white" over a rich black background. I must be misunderstanding you. By "10% white," are you talking about a 90% screen of your rich black build? With a 20% dot gain, I should think an 80% or 85% screen would do a very subtle job. Make it 75% if you want to to read a bit more. 90% wouldn't really show. Ask your printer for guidance. They're usually happy to help.
Mara
Should be fine..
I worked for a client who wanted rich black packaging and a ghost of their logo in the background. I think my rich black was with 60% Cyan..and my watermark was 90% tint of black..so yea! Same as yours.
Will you able to get a quick proof? I got hold of it A.S.A.P and made any changes...
10% seems a bit light. Ask
10% seems a bit light. Ask your printer, but usually 15% is the minimum requirement I've seen for a scaled back logo.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
I agree -- 15% is really the minimum...
...even in newsprint, anything less than that might not even show.
I think what she wants to do, though, is have the logo in a slightly paler rich black than the background, so around 80% of the background would do the trick. Running the logo at 15% of the background wouldn't really be a "ghost." It would be more a reversal.
Mara
Once you flattened the
Once you flattened the transparency you'd end up in the same place, though, mathematically speaking. 15% of white or 85%black end up being nearly the same once ripped.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
I guess I don't understand...
...what you mean by 15% (or 10%, or ANY %) of white. White is C0M0Y0K0, right? How do you get a percentage of nothing?
Oh wait. I tried it. I see. Weird. Anyway, I would much prefer to do a screen of the background build. Seems less likely to pull in an unexpected result.
Mara
Nobody has addressed the ink density
I'm surprised. He's got a 270% ink density as it is. Hope to heck there isn't any small type on this bad boy.
I recently did a product box for a company that had the exact same idea. Rich black background with a lighter black logo. I used:
Rich black background:
60% cyan
20% magenta
20% yellow
100% black
Logo black:
100% black
I also used a gloss varnish on the logo, and a flood dull varnish on everything else. The results are freakin awesome. Now package printing differs from your typical offset printing of brochures, but not too much. Here is a studio shot of the package:
Your ink density (the total of all four CMYK values combined) can kill the printing. I generally recommend a 240% or less density if at all possible.
Now, as far as the colors you chose, I suggest you at least have your rich black contain 100% black. With as much ink as you're tossing on the paper, you may run into color cast problems, in which case you're going to want 100% black to help prevent it.
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Visit The Graphic Mac for graphics and Mac OS tips, reviews, tutorials and discussion.
240% ??!!
240% is just dandy, if you're running newsprint, . Traditionally, Standard Web Offset Press (SWOP) has a TAC (Total Area Coverage) of 300% where sheetfed presses (say GRACoL) can handle TAC320 or more. Designers should take care to avoid small type knocking out of 4C backgrounds, but a TAC240% will not hold reverse type any better than TAC300, or whatever the recommended TAC for press/media may be.
As always, CYA by consulting with printer.
Nice design, Jim.
Nice design, Jim. Like your use of the partial-logo wraparound over the spine and cover, and the large logo made subtle yet dramatic. I could only imagine the box's final varnish combo. Must have looked friggin' sharp.
ciao
3dogmama
The photo IS the finished product.
The photo above IS the final printed box. That's how dramatic the varnish & black on black looks. Now obviously, studio lighting makes a big difference, but even with overhead lighting, it looks awesome.
Thanks for the compliments. And sorry to everyone for the minor hijacking of this thread.
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Visit The Graphic Mac for graphics and Mac OS tips, reviews, tutorials and discussion.
No worries! You should post
No worries! You should post some more in 'critique'...
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Powerpoint is not a design application
That's one gorgeous job! I
That's one gorgeous job! I love black-on-black with different varnishes. I've done it a couple of times myself.
Just a reminder, though, the poster is dealing with a magazine on a web press. Big difference in options there.
Mara
man i wish i could get
man i wish i could get effects like that digitally. in my current job, most everything i do is so short run (<20) that i have to make things happen digitally. and rich vs flat black just isn't the same thing digitally as rich v flat with varnishes.
rich black...
can be made using only 40% Cyan and 100% Black and you will get almost identical effects to using any more ink. With that in mind, why not 'ghost' the image by having it only 100% Black?? Or at the most with a little added cyan for good measure. Not really any need for a tint.
Our printers are able to cope with opacity levels of 5% and in honesty if you were considering ghosting, 10% would be the MAX i would send down. As already mentioned though, get in touch with your printer and see what their tolerances are.
Richard Ramsay :: Graphic Designer
can be made using only 40%
Not exactly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_black
Paper stock ink absorption as well as different blends of cmyk will give you different rich blacks.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
I think the web press in
I think the web press in this situation (and the quality of the paper, too) probably couldn't give the same result as the setup you're talking about. Possible, but unlikely. Your suggestion is interesting, though. I'll stash that away for future reference. Thanks!
Mara