PDF and font problem
ireid (1283 points) | Mon, 2007-09-10 16:15Hi everyone,
I just had to troubleshoot a problem with a PDF file that we had sent to the local press. We had 3 press insertions in 3 different papers. The same file printed three ways. Only ONE file printed incorrectly. This file did not print the headline correctly, it defaulted the font from Helvetica to their default 'times new roman.' In other words the headline looked terrible! The file was saved in illustrator CS2 as a PDF.
I flight checked the file using acrobat and it said the font was embedded. If it printed at the two other media houses correctly, why didn't it print correctly by the third?
Can anyone give me a reason why it may have defaulted in this case and how I can prevent that from happening again?
thanks
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
Commenting on this Forum topic is closed.
What aspect of the PDF file printed three different ways? With only one being classified as 'incorrect' in your view the results should be identical on the other two. Getting three different results is a little concerning.
Sounds to me like something isn't right in the PDF or someone feel asleep at the wheel over at the third location and didn't generate a proof from Acrobat before submitting the file to the RIP.
Over the years I've seen some garbage tactics for imaging PDF files on outdated RIPs.
Without seeing the PDF or knowing exactly how they submitted the file to the RIP I'd guess they have some override setup for dealing with base fonts. It could also be the case that the PDF level exceeded the RIP compatibility which caused this font to switch to their default.
In either case this shows some real sloppy quality control in the workflow at the printer and I'd seriously question using this operation in the future unless they can explain exactly what went wrong and reprocess the file correctly.
To prevent font substitution in the future you can always convert your text to outline before creating the final PDF for press. That will eliminate the possibility of this particular error occuring again.
[Just be careful NOT to save over your original illustrator document]
What I meant to say was the same file went down to three DIFFERENT media houses, out of the three papers, two printed correctly (with the right font) and the third didn't. My first guess was that they opened the file and re-saved it in another format (i.e eps) and the font then defaulted. I ran it through our Acrobat and it said the file was fine so that could be the ONLY reason that it rendered that way. . .
From now on I will be outlining files.
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
Outlining should safeguard you, but what PDF format was used? I always use PDF/X-1a.
-ryan
Ditto on the pdf/x-1a. Outlining fonts helps too.
The third printer may have opened your file in an earlier version of Illustrator and that way the fonts got mistranslated or weren't on their machine and a substitution was made; probably Courier?
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Powerpoint is not a design application
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Dirt and Rust
I checked it as a PDF X-1a using acrobat and it passed as a viable PDFX
I really think they opened it as an Illustrator 10 or even CS document.
If I opened a PDFx-1a in Illustrator CS2 wouldn't it give you an error that the fonts weren't installed or something?
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
It's all speculation until you ask your printer what they did.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
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Dirt and Rust
If you confirmed PDF X-1a compatibility that says they did something really retarded to produce those results or the RIP chocked on the font and they didn't catch it. [If the font is embedded in the PDF and properly submitted to the RIP it's very rare for it to be rejected and automatically swapped. Normally the RIP would throw a font error and not image the file]
What 'type' and 'encoding' does Acrobat indicate for the font? [Document Properties, Fonts] Also check to see what PDF compatibility was used... Acrobat 1.3, 1.4, 1.5 or 1.6 [Older RIPs can have trouble with Acrobat 1.5 and 1.6]
It could be the font is TrueType format which dcan cause issues with older RIPs.
It's possible they opened the file in Illustrator for output but to so with a press ready PDF has to be one of the stupidiest things anyone could ever do in prepress. On top of that Illustrator throws a huge 'find missing font' dialog if a font isn't installed and it can't find it within Suitcase. For anyone to make these two back-to-back mistakes would be bordline brain dead.
I'd personally call and have their prepress manager explain their PDF workflow and ask for his/her thoughts on how this could happen. Even if there was a glitch someone should of caught the fact that it didn't match the proof. They dropped the ball all over the place.
Talked to the people at the media house in question. Turns out they have a VERY antiquated version of Distiller (version 1 or 2) lol and so they SAY that they MUST re save the PDF's we make (because they are not REAL PDF's that Illustrator makes) so that they can 'drop it on the PDF bin' what ever that means and Distiller will make the 'correct' pdf. Sounds confusing, you betcha! LOL
In the end they WERE re saving the artwork as an EPS in Illustrator. What version you ask? maybe 10? We use CS2.
SO My question is:
IS a PDF from Illustrator a REAL PDF?
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
Adobe created the PDF format and you sure as hell can bank on the fact that they are making absolutely perfect formatted PDFs from Illustrator.
However, keep in mind there are over 5 levels of compatibility to the PDF format. (Acrobat 8 most likely added another level) Here are the options from Illustrator CS2 under the 'General tab - Compatibility' when you save the PDF out of Illustrator.
PDF 1.3 (Acrobat 4)
PDF 1.4 (Acrobat 5)
PDF 1.5 (Acrobat 6)
PDF 1.6 (Acrobat 7)
There are also older PDF formats that Adobe no longer supports and it's most likely the case you're saving PDFs in a higher compatibility then their old equipment can handle. The scary part is Adobe didn't really put prepress aspects into the PDF format until around Acrobat 3 and that was minimal.
What they are doing to your files to get them to work is DANGEROUS and you are losing control as they tinker with your files in older software. I have no idea how Illustrator 8, 9 or 10 deals with transparency from a PDF 1.6 file.
It confirms my suspicion that they are WAY out of date running garbage versions of software. Be VERY concerned and don't believe anything this 'Circus Act' full of donkeys is telling you. Why on earth are they running 15-20 year old software?
Besides, they should of called you immediately after receiving your PDF files and discovered they weren't compatible. For them to start jacking around with your files without first calling is very irresponsible and you have the proof with the font substitution sitting in your hands.
If you are forced to work with them in the future you need to convert all your type to outline and give them a flattened EPS file as a test. Have them distill it on there end and verify the results. And one final thing... ALWAYS provide them with a printed proof from your equipment. If they don't match it exactly don't pay for the work.
Illustrator PDFs are limited function PDFs due to lack of multipage, hyperlink or bookmark functionality. Illustrator PDF files are best for single page document proofing to clients. Make sure Options/Embed All Fonts are enabled. More here:
http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/18794.html
Sounds like the best thing to do is back save an Illustrator 10 eps doc so they can put that through their distiller to come up with a pdf. Try this on your system first to make sure the fonts don't get replaced.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
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Dirt and Rust
like a plan. I am waiting on them to send me their own settings for distiller so that I can make the PDF they way they want it one time, no hassle. :)
I'll let you know what the outcome is.
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda
That's a good idea. :)
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Powerpoint is not a design application
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Dirt and Rust
The only thing I can think of that might of cuased the problem is if the printer uses a PC to rip their files. Since Helvetica is a Mac font the PC might of not been able to read it even though it is embedded in the PDF. changeing fonts to outlines should always work atleast in my experience. That is the only thing that I see has not been listed here.
He recently posted the problem and it's old software and workflow related as suspected.
Additional Response to your Statement:
[1] If you submit the PDF correctly it doesn't matter what platform the RIP sits on as the fonts are downloaded directly from the PDF. Trust me, I managed a prepress department for 10 years and you can connect and RIP MAC postscript on a PC RIP. Even if the RIP chocks on a font it doesn't automatically start picking substitutes... it errors and doesn't image the file.
[2] Helvetica and a 100,000 other fonts come in a Mac Postcript format but these fonts are also available in PC Postscript, PC TrueType and Opentype. The font format has nothing to do with this issue.
[3] Look again... Converting the fonts to outline was in my initial response labeled 'Prevent'.
I should have gotten our artist to outline the file in the beggining. . . BUT I thought the same as NRG. . . the fonts SHOULDN'T default without some kind of warning etc. . . But Re-Saving the file on thier end was DEFINITELY a factor in a breakdown of 'quality'!
"Try not, Do! or do not, there is no try."
-Yoda