Really BIG logos.

Amen.

Ask this client if they'd like to see their car logo plastered all over their car and then they might see larger/more isn't better; just busy and ineffective. Great post, Mint.

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Powerpoint is not a design application

Well put! I wish more clients read this blog! :)

The client is not always to blame in such situations. In many cases the designer doesn't have the "cojones," or knowledge, to stand up to the client and "just say no." Hopefully posts such as that of Mintsauce will give others the encouragement needed to realize that they are being hired as the expert by the client. Being the expert means acting the part, and guiding the client through the process in the creation of design, marketing and advertising materials, with the ability to backup what you are recommending with professionalism, conviction and researched facts.

Jeff Fisher
Engineer of Creative Identity
Jeff Fisher LogoMotives
Author of "Identity Crisis!"

They fit perfectly , also in small pages! ; )

http://blog.tice.de/icons.php?sprache=englisch

Here is some nice "MAKE THE LOGO BIG"

http://www.underconsideration.com/MaketheLogoBigger.mp3

I don't think designers lack cojones or knowledge (well maybe some do) and I don't think it's the designers job to "Tell" the client what they want. If the client wants a huge logo in the middle of an ad and the designer thinks it's the worst idea - text doesn't flow, bad colors, whatever - the designer can explain why placing such a large logo may not work but if the client still wants it - Do It, Why Not? - The next line to the client goes something like "I think it might be better if we did (X) but lets give this a try and see how it works. If your wrong, you learned something (hopefully the client comes back), if your right, you will have a long term client who will tend to listen to your design guidance from then on.

Now if the client is a jerk, non-payer, or just plain difficult sure send them packing. If they are just stuck on their design ideas and you wouldn't necessarily design your own products/services that way - Do the best job you can with what they want. Outcome: Client is happy (they got what they want) You are happy - you did the best you could with what you were given AND you were paid for your efforts (you don't do this as a charity gig do you? ; )

Think of it this way - The next time you hire a painter to come and paint your house do you think he is going to turn your work down because you want pink shutters? He may suggest the color might not be the best or may suggest alternate colors but ultimately it's not the painters house.

Just my 2c

In terms of aesthetics, when it comes to anything design-related, if a client asks me "what do you think?" I am always surprised! I know it should (would?) be nice to have the client go with your recommendation, after all, they hired you because you're the expert (that's what we think anyway.) But the majority of the time I just operate under the impression that what I think doesn't matter, it's what the client wants. This is an issue I struggle with all the time. I'm the expert, they should listen to me! :)

/rant

not a very good analogy. maybe an interior designer is a better analogy. if you hire an interior designer and the two of you work out an earth tone palette to work within, but you decide you want to put in a pink accent wall in that room, don't be surprised if the interior designer says, "hey, why don't you just pay me for work to date and you can finish this up yourself, since you don't want to listen to my advice."

i actually got to listen to a well-respected (and financially successful) art director take a client to task for continually trying to noodle designs in bad directions. much of the gist of the conversation was around the fact that the client hired *her* because she design is her expertise and his weakness.

that said, those clients will end up with some designer who'll implement their designs and become glorified production artists. but it doesn't have to be you. and while you may have problems dumping them now (financially), hopefully you can get to the point with your business where you can say "no thanks" and work with clients who appreciate the fact that they hired you for your expertise.

and hopefully you actually have the right expertise ;).

Painter, Interior Designer, Graphic Designer all the same - They are in business to make the CLIENT happy with the final product.

I have been in the graphic arts profession for over 25 years (I love it) I have also been a business owner for just over 20 and have seen all kinds of clients and designers. The smack of arrogance of some of the posts is no surprise, we as designers tend to carry that trait to one extent or another.

First: This thread is NOT talking about ALL clients, just the ones who want things the way they want it. I obviously agree, some clients want to leave all design aspects up to us and some certainly do. Others work very well with our designers and provide some very useful suggestions in the development of their marketing materials.

But the clients in question, hire designers not because they are "experts", but because they are a necessary link in the chain of accomplishing their task - Which is, 90% of the time, to engage in some sort of commerce (brochure, newsletter, ads, etc..). Granted, they don't go to a baker to get the next ad made, but to think that these clients come to us so we can do whatever we want, and if they don't like it they can go somewhere else, is a horrible suggestion of a business model.

It has always been our policy to provide our clients with the best design and marketing guidance possible. - If They Succeed - We Succeed - This means we thoroughly explain the principals and practices we employ in our marketing and design. IF however, the client wants us to do something different, we are game! Why on earth would I ever tell a client who wants to use our services to "Take A Hike" because I didn't like his design ideas is crazy! The words "prima donna" come to mind.

The way some of the posts come across It sounds like they would be better suited to be brush artists - this way they can paint whatever they like and if someone wants to buy a canvas fine, if not, bugger off. It is certainly not a wise business model for the graphic artist though.

ImageMakerGraphics

i'm not the least bit of a prima donna. and i completely understand the difference between being an "artist" and a "designer." my business cards say "communication designer" for a reason. i understand my job is to solve a problem and communicate the clients' message, not to "make things pretty" (even if that's what some clients literally ask for). i'm also not a n00b at this. I've been a designer--in house, in studio, and on my own--for more than 15 years. and i don't expect a client to "leave all design aspects up to me." good design is a partnership between the client and the designer. you need both sides of the equation to create consistently good work.

i still disagree with your assertion that, even these clients we speak of, don't hire us because of our expertise. the issue in question is *which* expertise they are looking for as opposed to which type of work you want to do. clients who micromanage the design aspects, particularly those who demand you follow their direction regardless of whether it's a good design decision or not, are often hiring you more for your "computer" expertise, because they can't make their flawed design concepts happen.

my point was "do you want this type of client?" some people are fine with that kind of client. if you're comfortable with "work is work" and don't really mind, more power to you. as I said, there are plenty of people in the field happy to do this, and there are plenty of clients out there that want this kind of "design" work, which I consider more akin to production work than actual design work (hence my saying your "painter" analogy is flawed). you don't ask a house painter to pick your colors for you. you ask him to apply your chosen color(s). there's nothing wrong with being a painter and applying other peoples' choices, just like there's nothing wrong with being a production artist and implementing other peoples' designs. but people need to decide what it is they want to be. personally, while i actually enjoy some of my production work, i prefer to design and not produce other peoples' work.

clients who appreciate your advice and "design" expertise, in my opinion (and that's what i'm sharing here, my opinion), are better clients. because (a) they generally lead to more satisfying work and (b) in my experience (fwiw), they also tend to pay better. not just in what they're willing to pay for the work (usually more, because they appreciate the value of the expertise more), but they also tend to be the ones who don't hassle you over bills.

so the point i was trying to make was... what kind of client do you want? and how picky can you afford to be? it's obviously easier to decide not to work with "problem" clients (and yes, to me a client that regularly *dictates* poor design decisions is a problem client, and if that makes me "arrogant," then so be it) when you have enough business coming in that you have to turn some away. and at that point, i tend to choose to turn away the ones i prefer not to work with (which tend to be the ones i label "problem" for one reason or another, and this is one reason). it's kind of a natural thing to do, eh? is that really arrogant?

as far as "if they succeed, we succeed" goes, i think good design tends to lend itself more to success. and "good design" doesn't have to mean "more expensive" design. i can do good work inexpensively, certainly no more expensively than doing client-imposed bad work.

Has anybody seen this? http://www.makemylogobiggercream.com/

OK If we are talking about what kind of clients we would PREFER to have then I agree - The ones who allow us to not only apply our expertise but who also allow us to express our creativity and pay us huge sums of money to do it are perfect. Then I woke up in the real world and found that all clients are not like that. So what to do?

I guess if you plan to work on your own and carve out your own little niche market, and you live in a large enough area that you can afford to have "rejected" clients go around telling other prospective clients "don't use graphic design company X, they wouldn't design my ad the way I wanted and told me to go somewhere else!" - and still have a large enough client base to work with - Good for you.

I have grown my business from a solo operation to now employing designers, complete press and bindery staff, and office personnel and we didn't get here by turning clients away just because we didn't want to put that stupid star-burst at the top of their ad! If it's one thing I've found in my years as a graphic artist is that you have to be part politician in your approach to clients.

Can you imagine any major ad agency telling say 3M, Ford, or GE that one of our designers doesn't like your layout ideas and refuses to put that huge logo in the middle of your ad, so you can do it our way or go somewhere else? WOW it stuns me just to type that.

GWells I don't think we are as far apart as the text may make it seem. I agree if the designers in question live in a large enough market and plan to work for themselves perhaps they can afford to cherry pick the best clients. However if they have any aspirations of working at a large firm/agency or developing a larger business of their own, they wont get very far by NOT pleasing customers and telling them to go somewhere else whenever they don't agree with the clients wishes. That is simply unsound business advice.

I also want to add I don't think painters are simply "production" people. I just had a painter finish my dining room in a sort of suede/stucco look - Very Cool! Even though he had done it before several times, I in no way consider his talents to be "production work".

I personally don't think the graphic design profession can ever really be just production work or creative work. In my experience it is a lot like life (you take the good with the bad) sure some times we have to grit our teeth at the layout the customer MUST have, but as I said before, the vast majority of those clients came back to us and say "I should have listened to you - that huge logo in the middle of the ad was a lousy idea!"

Best of luck to you, and here’s hoping designers everywhere get only "perfect" clients; )

ImageMakerGraphics

i don't think you completely understand me, maybe that's my fault and i didn't communicate well. but i won't make everyone else slog through working it out, it's not that big of a deal.

Must we drag the designers of the front window at Barneys to East Rutherford to set this people straight? 642-436, just give us a stadium that pays equal homage to the history of both teams. Wellington Mara is somewhere up in heaven scowling.

I can see the point of view where it isn't good to burn bridges with clients who want something specific. In my current situation working at a small town publication I only meet a few clients who are creative and/or understand how print ads should flow. I can't bring myself to publish something that looks like I threw it together in 5 minutes. It's a symbiotic relationship, when you design something for someone your name is going to be all over it as well as theirs.

Example, You design business cards for Gary's Tree Trimming. You design and have them printed the exact way Gary wants them. Gary tells his friends where he had them designed. Gary's friends are to nice to tell him his cards look like crap. They don't come to you if they need cards.

I would rather create a little tension with one client, than lose 3 over being submissive. I don't think it's healthy to give in to every whim of clients, although I'm not above compromising.

I just know I would never go to a mechanic, tell him exactly what's wrong with my car and how to fix, without letting him look at it. Then stand over him and tell him , "O can you tighten that bolt just a little more","Can you get that belt a little tighter", "Could you make that radiator hose bigger and move it to the back" IMHO

**didn't realize this was such an old post until after the fact,... O well**

Clients like that are just complete dolts! Only 5 companies I can think of off the top of my head can get away with doing what he wants:
Coca-Cola
AT&T
Apple
BMW
Mercedes