Surrendering to Microsoft!
steveballmer (627 pencils) | Fri, 2011-08-05 02:43I know that most of the readers here are avid MacTards who believe that Steve Jobs is some type of a Messiah, but I beg you to just consider the following:
"The Cult of Apple has failed and Microsoft is the real deal as far as computing is concerned!"
I emplore all of you to be sensible, sell your Macs, your iPods, you iPhones, your iPads, .... whatever! Join the majority!
Wait for the ZunePhone, buy a Dell, use anti-virus, be NORMAL!
They are teasing your kids at school! That is simply cruel!
Do it for the children.
—
http://stevefakeballmer.wordpress.com/
I am not Steve Ballmer pretending not to be me!
Commenting on this Forum topic is closed.
I don't understand why you're registered here.
Yeah this schtick got old REAL fast.
Zune Phone???
Leaky Penny
Check out what I've been up to lately!
http://petersonjoseph.com
I'm going to print it out and eat it.
-Unknown Artist
Apple and users alike love the smell of their own farts.
They make Microsoft look like a humble old lady.
>> Cookie cut the chaos >>
Is that a pie someone is baking? Oh. Nevermind.
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
I'll gladly buy a PC, Steve. All you have to do is build a PC store in my house OR meet me in the parking lot of Best Buy and pay for my new laptop. I'm just asking for the same treatment I see you giving the other PC users on TV.
>>use anti-virus, be NORMAL!
And there's your hint it's a Mac zealot who treats computer OS like a religion. Lack of viruses is one of their common talking points.
They never mention that there so few few Mac viruses not because Macs are so secure, but because nobody cares to exploit 10% of home computers when they could go after the other 90% instead.
With the end result still being Macs having less viruses.
Thanks for the input though!
And a whole lot less software and hardware options too.
Thanks for playing!
Good point - you can do more on a Mac with less.
Be sure to keep your Norton upgraded!
Wow, all that AND you get the luxury of paying 2-3 times more for identical hardware? You guys have it lucky being so efficient; you get to do more with less since Apple decides what programs you're allowed to install on their machines. They are Big Brother and they love you.
Are you sure you aren't him pretending not to be you?
Well... "identical" hardware except Macs last 4 times as long with 1/3 the problems. But thanks for filling me in on that software "issue" for Macs. I will return the favor by alerting you to the fact that Macs can run Windows too. Which means any software that runs on a PC is - obviously - also available for the Mac (with or without Steve Jobs' approval).
PS: Pretty sure I'm not Big Brother, but if I were him, I'd probably be spying on you right now thru one of those infamous Windows security holes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYecfV3ubP8
4 times as long? Maybe as a doorstop, but not as a useable machine. I'd like to see where you pulled that statistic out of.
Windows CAN run Macs just as easily as the other way around. I can set my PC to dual boot or run it as a Virtual Machine. When I said Apple won't let you run things, I mean on their tablets and phones, where the only legal way to get anything is through their store and they regularly block programs for any number of good or bad reasons.
Thank God you pointed out that Windows has security issues. As we all know, Macs are immune to such things.
http://www.google.com/search?q=mac+security+hole&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
I'm typing this on a 12-yr-old Mac G4 powerbook... no upgrades, no expansion, no expenses beyond the original purchase price. Long term - Macs are cheaper too. :)
Congrats on Windows finally running "Macs" - once again Microsoft copies a successful Apple idea (years later).
Ah, so your statistical breakdown is one personal anecdote. That'll hold up in court.
"Congrats on Windows finally running "Macs" - once again Microsoft copies a successful Apple idea (years later)."
Finally? It's been possible for 15 years. Wake up. Only lately with Mac's switch to Intel has it started being popular for non-developers.
Macs invent nothing. Here's where they stole, I mean "got inspiration" for their mouse & operating system.
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars/3
well i think you must
be freak .....
I don't agree with the statement "Macs having less viruses".Mac usually gets more virus attacks.
web designing companies | web designing company
Stop the stick waving, they're both pieces of hardware, they're both pieces of software. Each are good at various areas of computing, get over it. This alone is enough to deter someone from becoming a designer, too many damn kids who have some preferential opinion of what's better. It's okay if you're comfortable with one OS over another, or one piece of tech. Just don't shove it down someone's throat.
After you've been doing this for 20 years, one thing you'll realize is the Mac users could not care less what is happening in PC world. It's not that we're afraid of PCs or we can't use them or we think they're inferior (we KNOW that;) - it's that we're perfectly happy with Macs and see no need to investigate what's going on with Gates & company.
The PC guys? They are OBSESSED with everything Apple. I can lead you to 100 websites dedicated to "iToilet" jokes and the like. Try finding ONE Mac user doing the same type of thing for PCs. It just doesn't happen.
That - in a nutshell - is the entire "argument" between the two. One side is content. The other side is continually looking over their shoulder to see what they are missing.
Try finding ONE Mac user doing the same type of thing for PCs. It just doesn't happen.
#1: The guy who started this post and has been driving the same tired joke into the ground on this site every day, for months if not years.
+1
Art, if you did follow the tech industry rather than just the Apple industry you'd know the joke behind the mockery. They usually are a nose in the air towards the lifestyle Apple is trying to sell along with their products. Again, each OS and company are better in certain areas. The DOS architecture is still being used unfortunately and wastes processing capacity, that's why Mac's are seemingly more efficient but really they have the same overall features. Couple that next to the ability to chuck your hard-drive (or insert part here) and replace it just as easily without seeing a tech to void your warranty, it puts it right beside Apple products overall.
If you'd like to know why I personally like either of the systems, here's my reasons below.
Windows/ Custom Build PC's:
-Compatibility is important, Mac is next to IE6 when it comes to finding affordable software for it
-Convenience of maintenance
-Back-end file structure making modifications to programs or software easy
-Traditionally Cheaper
Mac
-Better system processing speeds
-Design
-Shiny
EDIT: Just to clear things up as well, I don't really hate either. I just have a preference to Windows systems and custom built machines. I just don't like people who choose a side and try to shove it down someone else's throat. I feel the same about religion.
Okay - one last post on this and then we're done...
Art, if you did follow the tech industry rather than just the Apple industry you'd know the joke behind the mockery. They usually are a nose in the air towards the lifestyle Apple is trying to sell along with their products.
Couple things...
1) I don't follow the Apple industry - I use some of their products for my business. That's all.
2) I DO know the "joke" (using the term lightly) behind the mockery - I've been hearing it for 25 years. My brother is a certified Microsoft technician as well - he sends me the "jokes" all the time. He calls me a "fanboy" (I call him a "PC weenie":) - I'm aware of the whole routine. I don't believe Apple users "have their noses in the air" - I believe they are simply happy with their quality products and PC users are mistaking that contentment with arrogance. But that's jmho. :-)
Given you've been in the field for so long, when was the last time you tried a Windows 7 PC right off the line with equal specs? It's not the worst thing in the world, to be honest.
Never. Same for every other Windows operating system.
Like I said, each OS and company are better in certain areas. The DOS architecture is still being used unfortunately and wastes processing capacity, that's why Mac's are seemingly more efficient but really they have the same overall features.
Having never used a PC - I really wouldn't know. And - total disclosure here - the only time I'm really up to speed on the Mac architecture is when I'm researching a new purchase. When I worked for an Apple dealer - I knew more because it was in my face everyday. But now there is no reason to keep up - I'm a graphic designer, not a computer tech.
Couple that next to the ability to chuck your hard-drive (or insert part here) and replace it just as easily without seeing a tech to void your warranty, it puts it right beside Apple products overall.
Out of the 4 Macs I've owned in 25 years - one hard drive crashed. I replaced it myself (does not void the warranty - the instructions are right in the owner's manual). Never had a motherboard failure (although I've seen plenty of my friends pull their hair out over lost PC boards six months after they bought the machine...) I've also worked on site with 100s of Macs and worked for an Apple dealer too - those machines also did not need open-box maintenance (or even software maintenance if the user knows what they're doing). The simple fact is Macs are virtually maintenance free IF you use them properly.
So if that is the only advantage for PCs - I'd say your information is simply invalid.
If you'd like to know why I personally like either of the systems, here's my reasons below.
Windows/ Custom Build PC's:
-Compatibility is important, Mac is next to IE6 when it comes to finding affordable software for it
The software I'm using is the same price. Photoshop is the same price on both platforms. So is all the other software I use. And I have yet to have a need for some "mystery" software that's "not available" on a Mac - that's a PC user fairy tale. Most of the titles that are not available on Macs are obscure stuff with hardly any users. Obviously if there were money to be made on the software - they would port it to the Mac as well. Just like games are ported to Xbox and the PS3. But if that's your problem - look for a deal. I bought the CS5 Designer Suite for $400. That's a legal, authorized, registered version. I get Adobe spam every day to prove it.
-Convenience of maintenance
-Back-end file structure making modifications to programs or software easy
Again - Macs require no maintenance if they are treated properly. I have a 15-yr-old G3 sitting here that still works like the day I bought it.
-Traditionally Cheaper
Define "cheap". If you want a crappy box that's going to die 2 years later - buy a PC. If you want a machine that will last for years, never give you any problems and still be productive 10 years from now... buy a Mac. I prefer NOT upgrading for a decade than saving $200 and buying a new machine with all the inherent hassles and down time 2 or 3 times in that same decade.
Mac
-Better system processing speeds
-Design
-Shiny
Classic PC arguments - "design"... "shiny". Backhanded compliments (which I'll gladly take - you can add my Apple "pluses" to the list later;)
------------------------------
The bottom line is exactly what I said above... there are really two camps - those that are content, and those that are always looking at the other side to see what's up. Your "maintenance" comparison is really the same idea. One side is concerned with maintenance - because maintenance is a problem for them and there's one side that never even thinks about maintenance because it's not a problem for them. See what I'm saying?
The PC mantra really has not changed one iota in 25 years - the thinking is basically "Hey we have the same stuff and we're cheaper too - so why won't those Apple folks switch?" Meanwhile, the Apple folks are content and not even thinking about what's going on in the PC world. We don't care. Because we're happy. But the PC folks will never understand that. But let me try one last time - I'll give you a little perspective... this G4 I'm typing on right now... the one that's 12-yrs old and still making me money everyday? It's not the best computer I've ever owned... It's the best product I've ever owned. Understand? That's everything I've ever owned in my entire life - this is without a doubt the best product hands down... The best value. The most resilient. The most satisfying. The best payoff - short term AND long term. So why on earth would I even consider buying from someone else? To save a couple hundred dollars on the front end? ZM... the notion is absolutely ludicrous.
PS: As always... jmho. :)
So your 25 years of valuable experience is based on 4 machines that you yourself have owned. Therefore you're an expert on PCs and Macs and the difference between them.
I've worked in computer sales, tech support and repair at various places. To say that macs are "maintenance free" is a laugh, I've seen my fair share of them. Apple doesn't make magic hardware - they buy the exact same screens, hard drives, and RAM, put their label on it and double the price. They fail less than the industry average, but just barely.
The software you use is available on both, so therefore no software exists.
The PC mantra really has not changed one iota in 25 years - the thinking is basically "Hey we have the same stuff and we're cheaper too - so why won't those Apple folks switch?"
Projection. I couldn't give a crap whether you switch or not. Feel free to drink the koolaid. Windows users aren't in some vast "brotherhood" that cares about OS. There's a reason people call you "the cult".
You're obviously not reading my posts - or not understanding them. I clearly stated that I worked for an Apple Dealer (with a service department that was basically a ghost town because the machines never break down). I've also worked in production facilities with 100s of Macs AND PCs. Like most PCers - you don't want to deal with the satisfied Apple users - just the ones who have a complaint.
The cult is you, buddy.
So those genius bars are well trafficked and always busy. Strange how that is for machines that are so perfect.
And you're obviously not reading mine either. Apple often buys Western Digital drives and calls them their own. Western Digital drives break down fairly regularly. Are the drives that Western Digital gives to Apple magic hard drives that don't break down? Does Steve Jobs Fairy Dust make you not acknowledge reality?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10400447-1.html
Here's an example chart listing average breakdowns. And exactly like I told you, Apple is good but not the best, and CERTAINLY not 3 times better like your wildly optimistic claim.
"The cult is you, buddy."
LOL. Think differently.
Wildly optimistic "claims"...?
Note your post in the display - I just took that photo. You can tell it's an original Titanium G4 by the black keyboard - they switched to aluminum keys on the later versions of the same model. The display year can be determined by the clear plastic - they switched to the aluminum stand in 2003.
One side talks about a "good deal". Apple users actually get one.
Oh... and the iPod is 10 months old. So far, no problems - but I'll be sure to call you if something happens.
...snicker...
I've owned my iPod and charged it correctly for 2 years, the battery is losing it's ability to hold a charge. If it weren't an older generational model (2), I'd be inclined to replace it but given all software being developed for the handhelds are for 3-4 generations, I'll be upgrading to a 4, or if they have plans a 5 (another issue, you can always depend on a TV to come out next year, some companies don't like to disclose much or aren't as predictable).
We're obviously all debating based on experience with our own products but have you considered that you've met people who have been rough on their custom built or Windows OS rigs while you've been incredibly gentle and responsible with your tech? I know a girl who's mac laptop crashed, had her RAM replaced, the HD failed shortly after, she replaced that, her charge cable was damaged and once that was replaced the laptop no longer wanted to hold a charge. All within a 2 year period. I'm not strictly saying that this happens to all Apple devices, but that's my point. Everyone's tech is subject to their care and treatment and can fail just as well as anyone else's next to them, regardless of brand. I've had my Acer laptop for 3 years without any issues what so ever, even had root beer soak the entire motherboard.
I have a 486SX-25 with 1 MB RAM from 1992. It works fine. I can type a paper or browse the internet on it if I wanted. The company that made it must be the greatest company ever.
Statistics put Apple in the middle of the pack. YOUR PERSONAL ANECDOTES AREN'T RELEVANT.
Statistics will say whatever you want - especially Apple "statistics" from a PC rag. The FACTS put Apple at the top of the world...
http://creativebits.org/topic/apple_now_worlds_most_valuable_company#comments
But please keep whining - I love the sound of PC weenies when they're roasting.
Sheer idiocy.
This wasn't a "Windows Lovers" magazine. It was a computer magazine. They cover everybody. They don't hate Apple. They don't love Apple. They just said Apple was average. Based on hard statistics of repair turnover. In YOUR delusional world that's a biased attack from "whiners".
Before Apple, Exxon used to be #1 on your link there. What a great company. It proves how awesome and reliable they are.
Why do you even care? Why are we even having this debate about Apple if you (allegedly) "don't care"? You're proving my point better than I ever could - doing exactly what I said PC users do.... looking over your shoulder, checking the (alleged) failure rate of Macs, debating me on the finer points of Apple's superiority, etc... etc... You (think you) know all about Macs. Why? Because you are NOT content with you computer and need to know what's going on with Apple. I - on the other hand - will gladly admit to having never looked at ANY information concerning PCs. I would never bother to so much as even GLANCE at the failure rate of PCs (which I'm sure is astronomical) if the chart was sitting in front of me on the table while I'm eating my applesauce for dinner. Why? Because I'm perfectly content with my computer choice. You - like most PCers - obviously have a serious inferiority complex that drives you to "prove" your computers are "just as good" as Macs (never "better", btw - "just as good" - another telling aspect of the debate). That - as previously noted - is the basic difference between the two camps. One is happy... one is trying to prove they're happy (before they - eventually - switch to Macs). So again - thanks Mr. Coupon for proving my point.
"You're proving my point better than I ever could - doing exactly what I said PC users do....looking over your shoulder, checking the (alleged) failure rate of Macs, debating me on the finer points of Apple's superiority,"
That's a low blow dude, and surely only exists as part of a debate where each party batten down the hatches and dig deeper into their respective 'opinion' holes -with no sign of resolve.
Imagine what a horrible world it would be - and ironically would provide a level playing field for this debate, if Microsoft offered an all in one hardware and software solution - comparable to Apple.
I think that the issue here is freedom. I'll apologise in advance for this analogy, but I see Apple Macs as the blue pill - the matrix; offering stability, consistency and peace of mind, with PCs as the red pill - a troubled existence, yet FREE from dictation, with the ability to steer one's own vessel.
I think that your average man on the street isn't concerned with total freedom or build your own versatility - they just want a product with performance and reliability - and Apple have excelled in maximising on this fact (hence their share price) - but it's wrong to accept this status quo as the best solution/option, as if this was the case, then shouldn't we all move to Iran or North korea?
Take Ipods for example, why can't you just be offered an explorer window when you plug it in, where you can just drag music files into it - job done, without having to do everything through the family facade of iTunes, your iTunes; Or having to wipe the whole frigging thing if you want to add music to your iPod on any other computer/iTunes. Yes this 'almost' offers a solution to combat piracy - to an extent, but it totally sucks ass - isn't watertight and offers no hint of versatility; it's the dictatorial way of going about things - and we don't live in China or Russia.
Without another modern day version of the cold war, we'll all have to agree to disagree. There are valid arguments on both sides, and I think that ultimately, the foot-vote of the masses - which Art and Mr C are not part of IMO, will prevail (as it has already) - putting the easy, unquestionable and off-the-shelf option; on top; leaving people who actually care, skirmishing between each other - to no avail.
Let's hope that we continue to have choice - which is ALL that matters.
>> Cookie cut the chaos >>
On a side note - I had a dream last night - It was a party and Steve Ballmer was there. Why??
>> Cookie cut the chaos >>
Dude - I love ya, man - but that entire post was just another pile of PC misinformation. Nothing you said about the iPod was correct (except maybe the watertight part - not really sure about that and don't see how any player with an earphone plug is going to be watertight anyway). You guys need to get outside the group of regular PC users and talk to some folks who actually USE Macs. Not people who write for PC magazines and "test" the latest Mac product for 10 minutes before declaring it not worthy. Sit down and let someone who works with them on a daily basis answer some of your questions because you guys are WAY off track from reality.
You guys need to get outside the group of regular PC users and talk to some folks who actually USE Macs. Not people who write for PC magazines and "test" the latest Mac product for 10 minutes before declaring it not worthy. Sit down and let someone who works with them on a daily basis answer some of your questions because you guys are WAY off track from reality.
100% of Scientologists think Scientology is a really great organization and would never want to leave. Let's go talk to them and get some well-informed views on religion.
Proving my point that you guys don't even bother talking to Apple users.
Which - of course - is why you are so unbelievably misinformed on Macs.
I need to bring you along for every internet debate - you're better at making my point than I am.
I'm forced to use one at work and have no choice. It's like being handicapped for 8 hours every day. I don't go around looking for failure rate statistics, I went and found them to prove you wrong. Which I did, and then you took the coward's route of declaring them biased. It's easy to win an argument when you ignore the facts you don't like.
Average PCs are not better than a Mac. They are cheaper and roughly as reliable AS FACTS AND STATISTICS, NOT PERSONAL ANECDOTES SHOW.
My own PC is both much cheaper AND much better than a Mac. I have OSX on my home PC on multi-boot, and boot to it when I want to test out the apps I'm working on. I wouldn't DREAM of wanting to switch, whatever your pop psychology tells you.
I'm forced to use one at work and have no choice. It's like being handicapped for 8 hours every day.
Proving my point that PC users do not understand how Macs work.
I don't go around looking for failure rate statistics, I went and found them to prove you wrong. Which I did, and then you took the coward's route of declaring them biased. It's easy to win an argument when you ignore the facts you don't like.
Stats can say anything you want them to say. You want proof Macs are better? Here are the stats I like...
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/tests/4258725
MACS ARE - WITHOUT A DOUBT - EMPIRICALLY THE BETTER MACHINE. I just posted proof. Now don't take the coward's way out and say the stats are biased!
Average PCs are not better than a Mac. They are cheaper and roughly as reliable AS FACTS AND STATISTICS, NOT PERSONAL ANECDOTES SHOW.
Actually half right. They are "roughly as reliable", but - as my statistics prove beyond any shadow of a doubt - Macs are the better machine. The proof is in the testing. You can't deny reality.
My own PC is both much cheaper AND much better than a Mac. I have OSX on my home PC on multi-boot, and boot to it when I want to test out the apps I'm working on. I wouldn't DREAM of wanting to switch, whatever your pop psychology tells you.
Oh what? Personal anecdotes? Didn't you JUST SAY anecdotes mean nothing? But now that you brought it up - let's put it to the test... is your PC 10 years old? Are you still earning cash on it every day? And why would you want to test apps on OSX? That is - unless of course - you're always looking over your shoulder to see what Apple is up to.
Game... set... match.
Thanks for playing. ;-)
Let's see. What I linked is statistics for repairs on tens of thousands of machines. Yours is a survey of 10 people's opinions on how easy the Mac is to use. A survey that compares a whole two machines - one Mac and one Gateway. A fucking Gateway, overpriced underpowered crap that nobody takes seriously. And the result is "they're about the same".
Yeah you really won that one based on pure facts.
And why would you want to test apps on OSX? That is - unless of course - you're always looking over your shoulder to see what Apple is up to.
or it COULD be because it's my job to make sure everything works on all OSes.
Way to presumptively declare victory for yourself though.
Typical PC response. You're presented with the facts, so you claim they're somehow not facts. That is a benchmark test - NOT anyone's "opinion"...
Before we pulled out our stopwatches, we turned to two industry-standard, cross-platform benchmarking tools—Geekbench from Primate Labs and Cinebench from Maxon—to get third-party results. We ran both benchmarking programs on our Mac and PC desktop and laptop computers before our testers got their dirty little hands on the equipment to ensure that no confounding software could poison the results.
The Mac outperformed the PC in a BENCHMARK TEST. A Mac that's both CHEAPER than a PC and outperforms it. For $300 less, you get a bigger screen and a faster processor. Not only that - the Mac is only using one gig of RAM meaning when you expand to 3gigs like the PC - it's going to outperform the PC by an even bigger margin. Blows away all your misconceptions in one shot. So what do we get from you? "Oh that's Gateway - they suck." Ummm... yeah. That's the point - PCs suck. So thanks again for your support. Your the best friend a Mac defender can have - one who's bought into ALL the PC lies.
Oh shit! A computer with a fast processor did better than one with a slow processor!! NO ONE COULD HAVE EVER PREDICTED THAT!!!
Sure you might have to pick a lousy Gateway mac-imitation machine for the comparison to be favorable. Gateway sucks so ALL PCs sucks!! This PC costs more than a mac, so ALL PCs cost more than a mac. THAT'S BRILLIANT PERFECT LOGIC RIGHT THERE CASE CLOSED!!!
Should you listen to someone who has been using ALL types of machines, Windows, OSX, and Linux, for countless years? NO!!! You should rely on people who ONLY use Macs!! Go ask THEIR opinions, since obviously there's no chance of bias by people who paid too much for their status symbols!
http://store.apple.com/us/memorymodel/ME_IMAC_S10_27
Go right ahead and expand the Mac to 3gb, there's the link. You might have to pay 8 times the market rate for it, but it's MAGIC APPLE RAM!!! It makes you always correct!!! That's a bargain!
ROFLMAO!!! This gets better and better - now Gateway is the "imitation Apple" machine because Apple kills it with a cheaper product? Next you'll be saying Bill Gates is actually Steve Jobs in disguise - that's why Microsoft is always cloning the latest Mac OS a year after it debuts!
But why should you listen to an an actual Mac user with 25 years experience when you can read PC magazines run by people who use PCs agreeing with other PC users like yourself that Apple's machines suck? Gee... no bias / cult / status quo / circle jerk brainwashing going on there! LOL!!!
Dude, it's like you're reading my mind to prove every point I've ever made about PC users!
PS... RAM is RAM - who said you had to buy it from Apple? Nobody I know does. Do I need to say it again? Let's say it together this time... "another PC fairy tale". But hey - don't let me influence your opinion... you obviously loooooooooooooooooooove the taste of that koolaid! :-)
Probably because I have 20+ years of experience with PCs AND Macs. Using them both at home and at work, working in computer sales for both, working in tech support for both, working in installation/repair on both, developing software for both. You're a "actual long time user"? Who gives a shit? I build computers in my spare time for fun. You're the one out of your league in this discussion.
That's funny. Another PC tech who thinks snapping together parts and writing up a sales ticket makes him some kind of "expert". You don't USE computers - you TEST them. There's a difference. But I do agree that building boxes 20 years into your career DOES make you "special"... we're just using two different meanings for the word.
Holy fucking christ. Are you pretending to be 9 years old or are you actually this retarded? I build them, test them, AND use them. All day, every day, forever. Mac & PC. Yes, sometimes other people know more than you. You couldn't possibly be any more wilfully ignorant here.
Well, excuse me... that IS quite an impressive feat. How did you convince your boss to pay you to "build and test" those Macs that come fully pre-assembled and loaded with software?
BTW, when I worked for the Apple dealer (back when Macs did NOT come fully set up as they do now) - you know what the biggest service "problem" was? PC "experts" putting them together wrong. That's where the whole "Macs don't have an off switch" myth got started. PC techs always failed to install them in the Macs.
With my post I was exceeding the realm and purposes of design, weird on this site- I know.
I wasn't strictly speaking of all Mac users, clearly your opinion differs. I was speaking for the general Mac user and their "it just works mentality" and could care less about how something works and what they can do on their own to improve it. Those who have no experience with the machines, who have no experience with Windows computers, just a random distaste for another product due to brand allegance. Most probably couldn't realistically state (especially with the release of Windows 7 [an OS that has done almost everything in its power to emulate Leopard]) reasons they like the Mac OS over the Windows OS.
I don't feel you can knock custom built rigs or Windows much if you have very little experience dealing with them. I've had very few hitches related to my own computer in the past 4-5 years owned. My HD's taken a dump from a virus once and let's face it, most viruses are aimed at DOS infastructure. There's more of them, and they do a lot of damage. Unavoidable, sue me. Upgrading most parts for a custom built non-Apple rig is infinitely easier to find parts for and traditionally cheaper (if you're just using Leopard, and custom hardware, this is obviously untrue). I never said this was the only advantage to "Windows" because, quite frankly: it's for computer tech in general. You just don't usually get this type of option when buying under Apple's pretense for the average consumer.
You misunderstand the term maintenance here, part on my fault for not properly explaining. Most software on a Window's OS can be modified for ulterior purposes, improved, modified, etc. due to the vast properties aloted to a user. From my experience, this is harder to do at face value for a middle of the road Mac user. The average Windows user can severely muck up their device playing with these settings. If I had to wager a guess, the switch from Windows-Mac is a result of cases exactly like this. Windows gives people more freedom to do things they shouldn't, and the consumers who purchase Windows seem to think their automatically technical astronauts ready to overclock their machines to the nth level (probably an envy point for Mac being responsible enough to its users to lock this feature unless you truly know what you're doing).
A Mac/ Apple tax is a tax all the same, everything you buy from them lasts the same amount of time if treated the same as any other tech (minus processing troubles, as mentioned previous) and costs more in many cases. I haven't used Mac's for 20 years, probably about 3 and not very religiously either. Saying they're classic PC arguments is like you saying only PC's get viruses. If you search up enough unsavory sites on a Mac you'll still have issues. Had Mac's won out earlier than the Windows platform and time+market share were given opposite, all warez and viruses would be mainly developed for Mac instead (Pepsi+Coke debate anyone?). What's to hate about saying that they're designed nicely or that they're shiny? I'll admit, having cords hidden is a very large benefit to moving your system around, cleanliness and operating temperatures (ie. fan flow). You have to give me some sort of credit, I know why I like the design and shine to my products.
I don't feel your conclusion is worth much via maintenance. It's a concern to some, yes- but not to all. My points, granted not very well explained are more for further improvement and power to my system rather than dealing with defaults, something most Mac users prefer from what I've seen so far. I'm quite happy you own Mac's, I don't resent you for it either. It's a product you find most satisfying while another is one I find most satisfying. My computer usage probably varies quite differently than yours, as with most Mac users, hence our varied preference.
Anyways, I shouldn't be debating this with you because you're not even who this is truly aimed at really. It's the newer Mac market my general argument is with, not the ones who've had experience with Apple products. I think this only became an issue for me when Apple started attacking the Windows OS which to me felt immature, that's when all the 'snootyness' started really happening.
We can agree to disagree. I was merely pointing out the experience I - and every Mac user I know - has had. The "regret" and "unhappy" Mac users are mostly (if not entirely) PC users who were forced into using Macs for whatever reason and brought all their complaints with them imho. Nothing would make them happy. You sound like one yourself - using them for a couple years (the bad years, btw - the non-Jobs years) and never "religiously". But whatever - like I said - if you're happy, I'm happy for you.
I don't believe I said once I was dissatisfied with Apple products, did I? I'm pretty sure the most I've said against them is lack of software compatibility and price. I like Apple, I just like the Windows OS more. I have yet to really have a bad experience with Mac's, but they don't serve all the needs I require for computing, so that coupled with what's mentioned above deters me from purchasing any computers from them.
My husbands new mac opens Photoshop is 4 seconds. flat. I timed it. (and promptly usurped his computer) Just had to throw that in there
From success to failure is one step. From failure to success is a long road.
Mine takes 3 but I have a Quad core processor, might be a difference. InD takes a bit longer, unsure why- must just be the programming. Illustrator takes just under 3 however. It's the least feature heavy however I find so that makes sense.
So honestly, with your quad core processer, and custom built assembly and every thing else you've done to build your computer... how much do you think you've spent?
More than that, how much time do you think you've spent assembling it? Cleaning it? Repairing / modifying it?
I'm not asking to be snide - I'm genuinely curious... if I was paying someone to do for my PC what you've done for yours, how much would I be looking at, probably?
From success to failure is one step. From failure to success is a long road.
You can buy a high-end custom PC with the specs to do that cheaply. There's no point in having someone come out and do it.
Once you've got the machine, the maintenance is the same on Macs & PCs - defrag the hard drive, clear out the cache/temp, uninstall background software you don't use.
Assembly: $800 for the tower, $900 for the software, sound system, monitor, backup external HD, printer, desk, surge protector. For time spent, about an hour, 3 after all software was installed.
Cleaning: maybe $10 every 6 months for an air can or keyboard cleaner
Repair: Nothing.
Modification: $100 for some blue LED fans to make my tower run cold.
Mr. Steve my Balls, enjoy the envy.
Apple #1
yes I'm brazilian xD
:/
>> Cookie cut the chaos >>
the design and quality of Apple products is generally very, very good, and that helps too, but they aren't so different at all from many other boxes o' chips, irrespective of OS
Art, for the love of christ and my sanity please stop responding to any of your posts with "a typical PC user response". It's making you sound really convoluted and lonely with your arguments when it's the starting head (and quite frankly excuse) for any response to all users pitting against you. Unfortunately if you're going to compare the very limited product base of Macs you're going to have to open yourself up to the scrutiny of the wide range of PC products to bat up against it. You can pick one that isn't doing well but you cannot expect us to accept it as the generalized proof for the entire PC market given we're part of the very same market we buy from. We know how vast it is and what it has to offer.
It's not strictly a PC user who is constantly looking over their shoulder at other products, it's a smart consumer who wants better products and does their research.
Before you say it, this is a typical PC response. Deal with it. I can't fathom why you or the others are still arguing about this trivial shit. You like Macs, they've never failed you- others like PC's because they've met our own needs. Can we move on happily?
I've used PCs and I've always felt the need to shower after I've touched them. I could extemporize about all of the tiny, miniscule details that goes into the hardware and the software that makes a Macintosh the preferred machine for designers.
But that would be wasted effort.
So, if you are a designer and you prefer to use a PC, we're going to look a little oddly at you. You're just going to have to get used to it.
Weirdo.
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
Oh man. Art is pretty obviously being a fool up there in the thread, but I had respect for your quality prepress knowledge...
Macs WERE the preferred tools for designers.... in 1996. Now they're largely interchangeable. I'd like to hear about all of those miniscule details that make it so superior if only your time wasn't far too important to be wasted on unworthy PC users.
I think I kind of like all of you (and myself) a little less now - just barely - for taking up this much space in the universe with this discussion.
From success to failure is one step. From failure to success is a long road.
Because there is nothing I enjoy more than beating a dead horse (let's call it post-mortem equine tenderization) I thought I'd take a moment to address why Apple is the preferred computer for designers as opposed to PCs.
First and foremost, if you're a designer, then you came to this field because you love design. You gotta problem with that statement? Click on the following link http://www.lolcats.com/
Now that we're alone...
Still... you don't love just ANY design. You love GOOD design and nothing less than good design will ever fill that empty space in your soul. And you had no idea your soul was empty until you saw IT!
In the early 80's architect/designer Dieter Rams created what came to be known as the 10 commandments of good design. You should have a read.
http://www.vitsoe.com/en/gb/about/dieterrams/gooddesign
Point for point, Apple gets the marks on that list. PC's, not so much.
Why do I buy a Moleskin notebook for $20 bucks when I could get an equal amount of paper in a spiral notebook? Design. Why to I spend so much on a mechanical pencil at an engineering store when I could get 10 plastic ones at Wal-Mart? Design. Why would I choose one toaster over another? Design.
So, let's say you're the type of guy who always buys the spiral notebooks, the plastic mechanical pencils and the cheapest toaster on the shelf.
Sure you have paper and the means to write on the paper and even the ability to create toast, just as I have those abilities. However, the products I own are well designed and each are a complete joy to use and I value them because I value design.
I value design not only in what I create but in the things I choose to place around myself and frankly you can't have one without the other. The relationship is truly symbiotic.
So, there you have it. There is the reason we look oddly upon the PC evangalist designers (I didn't even know they existed).
It's the same look we'd give to a chef when he tells us he'd rather eat slim jims and cheetos.
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
Like UFOs, Cao - I will believe PC designers exist when I actually see one in real life.
Coup? Nobody likes a sore loser. Just a thought...
Then why are you still posting?
Your argument has a lot of holes in it, but rather than address that, you just ignored it and declared victory again. You have no credibility and convinced no one in this thread. You're the Baghdad Bob of debate: Apple Art.
I remember that godawful cat flyer you posted a while back. No one who shows off something that amateur should ever be deciding who is and isn't a designer. Because you chose the trendy expensive machine doesn't magically give you any talent.
My question... why are you still posing?
Especially after you've already been ex-posed as a guy who snaps together boxes for your boss at some low rent PC repair shop? We both know you hang on this board so you can rub elbows with real designers.
Oh be gentle on the poor lad. I'm sure he'll submit a stunning design of his own creation to the critique section, once and for all vindicating PC users everywhere.
Well, at least I hope he does.
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
You're a hack. How the hell am I exposed? I build computers for myself, I worked in a repair shop 15 years ago. I knew more about computers in grade school than you do now. Your shallow knowledge has been revealed over and over here. I don't know if its cognitive dissonance, but you seem to zone out whenever it happens.
Not only are you painfully ignorant about anything besides a mac (self-admitted), your work is crap and even your long time forum buddies were ashamed to admit it. Yes I can post critique examples that are much better. Will it convince you that I'm right? Of course not. You don't listen to evidence, you're 100% irrational and can never admit your own mistakes.
If you want a design throwdown, I'm happy to oblige.
A "design throwdown"...?
Is that what you PC techs do when you're not trying to figure out how the iPod audio jack works?
Stop living in your fantasy world where I don't know 10 times more about your own OS than you do. It's an art challenge - you can even pick your specialty - logos, print design, websites, illustration, photography, anything. Or you can back down and try some feeble excuses about how you're SO sophisticated and beyond that. Nice work on that front already, btw, everybody is fooled. :)
True... I fooled the university into giving me a BFA in graphic design... I fooled all those ad agencies and marketing firms into paying me a lot of money... I fooled the publications I work for now into giving me the "art director" title... I've got everybody fooled except the PC technicians. You guys are totally onto my game - cuz you're so much smarter than the rest of the population. Now if only you could figure out how to plug in the earphones on an iPod you could celebrate your superiority with a couple bars of "We are the Champions".
That seems to be the case. You're much better at BSing your computer knowledge than producing good art. It doesn't work on someone who actually knows what they're doing. We all saw that newspaper masthead you posted a while ago. Nobody who made that should have any title higher than 'janitor'. 100% of everyone who saw it thought it was crap, and your 5 pages of essay justifying it didn't seem to change any opinions. Counting up the number of comments stating 'hey wait I thought you were good' makes it clear that you're the only one who got exposed as a fraud on this site.
The article in question was about first generation iPhones, not iPods. I don't know if it's true on current generations. But I'm taking the word of the guy who wrote the article. I don't own an iPhone at all, why would I cripple myself by choice? Maybe so I could pretend to be a high class superior snob all the time.
Challenge is still open. I'm awaiting your excuse.
Design is subjective. Everyone views it through a different eye. Think back to when your client was happy with a steaming pile of sith s/he forced you to create for a check. Same result, you got your check but they were happy with it.
I'm trying to stay out of this absurd stick waving but it's truly mesmerizing how people think their opinion weighs any more than someone else's. We're arguing over preference right now, I mean- really?
@CAO
That's all great, except you missed the entire point of that argument. Nobody is denying that Macs are well designed. But a well-designed chrome-plated, ergonomic grip hammer doesn't make a better carpenter than the 99 cent Walmart equivalent. The most expensive mechanical pencil in the world might be a joy, but it doesn't make you a better artist.
I'm not using a PC to be cheap, but because I really can do more with it than you can with your machine.
Also from your list:
#9 Good design is environmentally-friendly
Apple is the Worst Environmental Offender in Tech, Says Greenpeace
Yeah, I was hoping nobody would notice that. Still, 9 out of 10 ain't too shabby ;-)
And you're point is well taken. You could design on anything you like. An old Scitex workstation, an Atari or even an Etcha-sketch. I'm 100% Honey Badger about it.
Of course I wasn't suggesting that an ergonomic hammer makes a better carpenter but simply pointing out that designers who value excellent design from themselves tend to demand things that are well designed for themselves. I forward this idea as cause of Mac dominance in the creative field and suggest this design-ownership-appreciation-obsession might negatively color the perception of PC designers from the Mac perspective.
Or not. Anyway, it was a lovely writing exercise.
Without my sense of direction, I don't know where I'd be.
"I forward this idea as cause of Mac dominance in the creative field and suggest this design-ownership-appreciation-obsession might negatively color the perception of PC designers from the Mac perspective."
Yes... That and all that crap from we've seen from PC users.
Congrats on Windows finally running "Macs" - once again Microsoft copies a successful Apple idea (years later).
Just requoting this to remind you that you're still a moron.
You... have to be joking... right?
Seriously? You think somebodies computing platform dictates their design abilities?
You're a joke dude. Seriously.
You also need to stop hiding behind your "I'm a professional with 25 years experience" BS. If you were a professional, or anyone note-worthy you would have published pieces, a large company to manage, and not be sitting here degrading people on a cheesy internet forum.
If you want to shut everybody up, for god sakes at least have a website with your work on it. Don't hide behind this smoke of design superiority, I want to SEE how great your work is.
25 years, you should at least be able to impress me with one piece of work, right?
Visit me at Huemor Designs
www.huemordesigns.com
Visit me at JGDesigns
www.jeffreygapinski.com
Except the problem is for every nice move they do, there's a restriction on top of it. All their hardware looks nice and shiny. What's the point of the slightly-irregular headphone jack on the ipod, other than to force people into buying accessories? How can you release a smart phone without the ability to copy and paste? (yes I know microsoft did this too on an early model) Why are slightly changed versions of OSX, iOS, and iTunes totally incompatible, other than to make you pay for unnecessary OS updates?
I may be misunderstanding you, but iPod's use a standard 3.5mm audiojack. While I agree some items (such as basic Radio features or early model camera features) are a cash grab on Apples part, they do have quite a bit of good accessories other media players don't have. The reason the market is dominated by Apple accessories is because they're the most popular device out there. The phones/ touches can copy and paste, by the way.
Now I'm afraid you're deviating in this lunacy, were you three not focusing on Apple Computers?
I'm talking about this: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/apple/that-damned-recessed-iphone-headphone-jack/828
The jack being designed so typical headphone plugs don't fit right.
Older iphones did not have the copy/paste function. They added it once the competition used that as a selling point.
I own an iTouch, I haven't a clue what you or zdnet are talking about. My ear buds are made by Sony and fit fine, no specifics to the Apple brand were given on their packaging either.
EDIT: In fact, I just checked my Sony headphones, computer headset and the dollarstore backup in my drawer, all of which fit fine. I guess I'm just incredibly lucky.
Quark Xpress....? Still...? REALLY??
>> Cookie cut the chaos >>
I still love Quark...
living on dreams and custard creams.
We started this thread with a word from Steve... seems only logical to end it with a word from Steve...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE
Not normal.
From success to failure is one step. From failure to success is a long road.
I'd fuck my mac if I could find a hole big enough.
living on dreams and custard creams.
APPLE = U.S.S.R
>> Cookie cut the chaos >>
Can't we all just get along?