Adobe & Macromedia sittin' in a tree
The time has come, Adobe have completed their acquisition of Macromedia.
If you have not visited Macromedia's website recently, you might want to take a look at whats going on. Also, Adobe are now offering combined Macromedia + Adobe software packages.
Both companies have commented in the past that there customers should only expect little to be changed. It does mean that in the long term the likes of Freeland will be getting a fond farewell from many users and a big hello to Illustrator, and Go Live lovers will be introduced to its new big step brother of web dev, Dreamweaver.
I cant wait to see what happens, Adobe and Macromedia together can really pack a punch.
What does everyone think?
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I think this is old news,
I think this is old news, actually.
The news about Adobe and
The news about Adobe and Macromedia joining up is old news (spring 05) but the completion was only very recent.
Welcome to CB
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Adobe GoLive
The best HTML editor on the market is Adobe GoLive. The future is bright for Adobe GoLive. Adobe will continue develope GoLive. The Dreamweaver team will be a part of the GoLive team.
I prefer BBEdit,
anything else is uncivilized.
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Infinite Style
I used to prefere BBedit
When mx and mx 2004 were out, I wasnt overly keen on Dreamweaver. I hand code everything when possible, I found Dreamweaver to be slow and irritating and did switch to BBedit. Although Studio 8 has grabbed me back to Dreamweaver, on os x Dreamweaver is now a great App, with great live preview now and great css support.
During the dark time of mx/mx04 I tried goLive and to be completely honest, I hated it. All those drag and drop buttons, gimicks, and bloating the code... no thanks i'll stick to fast loading sites.
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We'll just have to wait and see
I'd say that its more likely goLive's best features will be ported in Dreamweaver purely for the market share DW has over GL. Who knows, they might even combine their mightyness and create a super child from the two nemesis' and release goDreamliver lol
... or they might not...
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Amazing
I am shocked to see someone type positive feedback in regards to GoLive. GoLive is absolute Crap! In the early days at my present job I spent the first 6 months rebuilding and fixing the jokes of websites their previous "designer" had built with GoLive. Talk about bloated, messy and entirely unneccessarily convoluted code.
The best way I have found to code hands down in my experience is to use Dreamweaver for what it can do, and then take the rest on by hand. Tremendous time saver. Don't blame dreamweaver for "sucking". Take the time to learn your software. For me and my coworkers, and other people I watch use software in general, I observe it is user error 98% of the time people. Now I can only speak for DW MX and later versions. If you know how to use the program however, you can save tons of time by letting the program generate certain coding pieces. There is also a menu command to "apply source formatting" and this does a great job at aligning your code and cleaning up or adding extra tabs / spaces as necessary. DW is a very cpable program that I would be very uprised to hear anyone say it did not save them a ton of time once they actually learned what it can do, and how to do it the right way.
That is the only time in my life I have heard someone say something that was anything other than horrible about GoLive. I guess the point of my rant is to vocalize what a capable buddy Dreamweaver can be once you learn what he can do for you, and where you need to help him along a bit. After all, in the big picture, it's all about coming in at or under budget, and DW gets me there every time at an affordable price to the client.
yea
i know what you mean totally pechos although a friend i used to work with preferes goLive for its integration with the rest of the Creative Suite. I suppose that is a good feature, but still... goLive is a awful web dev application.
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The OLD GoLIve yes
Today GoLive is number one for XHTML and CSS editing. The rumors at the Adobe HQ is that DW will die slow.
GoLive is validating to 100%. DreamWeaver makes crappy code. The Pros choice is GoLive.
umm...
The pro's choice is usually hand coding - which is what I do, and I use dreamweaver for that.... so if theres crappy code it will be on my fault. Dreamweaver 8's code isnt crappy, yes it would be better if CSS code generated by dreamweaver was shorthand but thats about it. I can only think of 1 person that uses golive and thats purely because his graphic designer and wants to keep everything in the creative suite.
I can think about 30 web designers / developers that cannot stand goLive and that use Dreamweaver instead.
Also... number one for XHTML and CSS is,,, *shock horror* Hand coding again, the app that people use for that is usually DW or BBedit or similar apps to BBedit.
The only way I see goLive becoming good and dreamweaver dying slow is if dreamweaver has no further updates and goLive is re launched with pretty much everything that dreamweaver has (now that the companies combine, I suppose the code will be shared ;) )
Sorry to be strong on this point, but I cant understand how people think Golive will lead the way in web... its about as logical as saying that tables rock for desiging and laying out web pages, especially if you build them with FrontPage.
Maybe you know about the future version of GoLive but as it stands i dont see it being the way forward...
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Handcoding is what i like
GoLive is presenting the code better. groupwork whith "checkin" "check out"-files is amazing in GoLive.
The CSS editor in GoLive is better. The XHTML and W3 code controll in CS2 is number one. It´s seems like you never tried the new CS 2 version. Tabells is typical Dreamweaver using. DIVs and dynamic editing in CS 2 is mutch better.
I have been a bBedit user for years but for 2 years ago i switcht and found myself mutch faster.
I know no webdevelopers that use Dreamweaver. i Know over 50 that uses GoLive.
?
What is your source on all these "facts" of yours regarding the "slow death of DW"?
I can't decide whether or not to take you serious on any of this becaue it is starting to sound like all your doing is playing devils advocate. Not being a prick, but have you ever opened a copy of dreamweaver. Furthermore, the latest DW?
Like Jammo, I have some strong opinions on this topic is well. It is a conversation I have had far too many times in the past with people that have No idea what DW is actually capable of, but they jump on the hand coders anti-DW bandwagon. Personally I have used both and know people that use both, and for you to say that GoLive can even come close is too funny. Maybe I am full of crap here.
Any other GoLive advocates willing to step forward here? I would sincerely be interested in anything else positive others (that have used both apps) might have to say on the topic. Or, is the "GoLive Advocate" the mythological beast I think it is?
hmm *ponders*
I guess thats about GoLive's complete worldwide audience then ;) Im very surprised you dont know any out of '50'? that use Dreamweaver.
Lets see, you say you like hand coding but you use the CSS editor? Hmm, the point of using an editor when it will only slow you down?
Also it does appear you havent used Dreamweaver 8. I have used Golive in CS2 and i still think its laughable. Dreamweaver is totally for css / xhtml based layout.. it has been since version 4, and ffs its amazing now.
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Hmmm...
I like GoLive too, but I think you've got it backwards. GoLive will most likely go the way of PageMaker and Dreamweaver will be their main webdev app. Dreamweaver already is the defacto standard as far as WYSIWYG Web editors and GoLive is thought of as a "beginners" type of app (though in my opinion it's just as powerful as DW).
Either way, it will be interesting to see what Adobe does.
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the Economics of it all
As an economist I can tell you that the most important post-merger tendency is to raise prices, because of the lack of competition. Also, producers might be sloppy when it comes to fixing bugs, adding features, etc., again, because they lack the threat of competition.
That's the bad news (that we might expect higher prices and slower development). The good news is that if the managers exagerate with these tactics they'll create an incentive for someone to come and compete with them. (Maybe by resurecting Corel? I don't know much about these products.)
Anyway, I predict a bit of stagnation features-wise, and at least constant prices.
Some good points there
I didnt think about the decrease in new developments, that could become very annoying.
It does feel to me though that Adobe and Macromedia are trying their best to innovate quickly, i hope they continue to do it as quick and even quicker.
Welcome to CB Garbriel! (just saw you registered a few minutes ago)
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it's all about hand-coding.
it's all about hand-coding. Anything like GoLive and Dreamweaver, which I admit I 'used' to use, is very convoluted and unnecessary. I would suggest those who think otherwise to go invest, instead, in a CSS book and BBEdit.
:)
Not in my experience.
I have watched the speed of the hand coders vs. the dreamweaver / hand users (including myself) and there are still a ton of short cuts DWMX and above offer for building an XHTML / CSS / CSS-P standards compliant "clean" coded web site. Once again, knowing how to use your software and what it is capable of. I have also heard some very good things about the latest release of DW and it's enhancements in the WYSIWYG CSS(P) display accuracy. If nothing else, not having to constantly preview your code is a indeniable time saver in itself.
Once again, this is my observation / experience with people who know their programs inside out vs. the hand code technique. Personally, the fewer keystokes, and less time spent building a site, the better in my (pocket)book. For those of you that say, "the more time on these keys the better!", enjoy.
Not in my experience.
I have watched the speed of the hand coders vs. the dreamweaver / hand users (including myself) and there are still a ton of short cuts DWMX and above offer for building an XHTML / CSS / CSS-P standards compliant "clean" coded web site. Once again, knowing how to use your software and what it is capable of. I have also heard some very good things about the latest release of DW and it's enhancements in the WYSIWYG CSS(P) display accuracy. If nothing else, not having to constantly preview your code is a indeniable time saver in itself.
Once again, this is my observation / experience with people who know their programs inside out vs. the hand code technique. Personally, the fewer keystokes, and less time spent building a site, the better in my (pocket)book. For those of you that say, "the more time on these keys the better!", enjoy.
Perhaps
I still feel Dreamweaver 8 is now the better choice for hand coding, with the auto fill features and new improvements in code view.... Dreamweaver makes it extremely easy for anyone wanting to switch to CSS to get on it with and make the transition. (but obviously doesnt make them a great css coder ;) )
BBEdit is fine but still feels a bit empty to me, personal preference I suppose.
I guess it just goes to show that a workman cannot blame his tools, hand coders should be able to make do with textedit / notepad I know I do with transmit's editor.
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Box design
Did anyone notice the extremely ugly rig-job they pulled on the software bundle boxes? They could've at least tried to make em look good!
Freehand
Its a shame to see the freehand's end.
Personaly i dont like illustrator, i tryed to get in to that, but.. freehand is freehand.
I think im going to be a dinossaur using my version of freehand in years to come without any upgrade.
(sorry about my english)
i hate that
adobe merging with macromedia.
in my opinion adobe was always a bit paranoid about competition.
so what's the best solution when facing competition? buy it.
macromedia was always very close to the user comunity.
a lot of flash forums out there had a regular macromedia insider who gave tips, registered bugs and listened to what users wanted. and that felt good. and you could see it in features added to the next ver of programs.
adobe just does not feels like that.
now what do we have? we have a freehand left 2 versions behind. with a crappy antialiasing engine, buggy export & weird font support. still, with a single object select arrow you can do what you do in illustrator with 3.
and yeah, i switched to illustrator. they gave me no option.
go-live had some smart features.
but with the last DW thats all history.
dreamweaver is cutting edge.
and for hand-coders. let's face it. cant write code by hand in notepad for 10 thousand TDs and TRs, preview it in real time and still pretend you are faster than DW.
SVG vs. SWF? no comment.
Personally I consider CS2 a rip off. Its rather clogged, eats a lot of RAM, and those thousand palletes are flickering like a christmas tree. suddenly more is not better. options are hidden behind other options. you can perfectly see that in windows. its like they try to sell more hardware by making huge un-optimized code. oops. actually that's a certainty.
Competition is the root of all good for an end-user. You get smaller prices, smarter versions, less bugs, more enthusiasm.
Quark is a good example of no competition for too long.
They lost their touch. They dont think for real anymore.
And what I really hate the most is that they got bigger.
And I hate corporations.
Suddenly Adobe feels too big. Scary big.
And we got signs of stupidity.
Strange times ahead.
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the best often die by their own hand
just to get away,
and those left behind can never quite understand
why anybody would ever want to get away from them
Quote:hand-coders. let's
hehe - exactly the reason why Xhtml / css is the way forward... no bloody TD/TR flying through the page.
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yes, please don't use tds
yes, please don't use tds and trs. If I'm hand-coding, I would never use 10,000 table tags or anything like that .. rediculous. So ... in that respect, I'm faster than DW. :)
although
If hand coding in dreamweaver, dreamweaver gives you code hints and auto fill of closing tags.... So to hand code in dreamweaver is quicker and more efficient .
And with Split code / design view... you see what you're doing as you hand code... DW wins it so far :)
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