Potential employer stealing ideas
Hello everyone. I've been reading the forum feed for a while now, but this is my first contribution. I've got a hypothetical question that I hope spurs some interesting discussion...
I manage a team of designers and we create watersports equipment for the company in which we are employed. Many times in the past, when interviewing potential candidates for design positions, I have asked them to complete a few re-designs for some of our existing products. Just to see how well their style meshes with the line of work they would be doing. I was asked to do the same thing before I was hired. Now, if the candidate is not chosen for the position, can any of the designs submitted by that candidate be used? Is there any type of contract that could be utilized by either employer or designer that would spell out the usage rights of the images without upsetting either involved party? Or is the artwork protected under some sort of creative license?
Thanks for any suggestions.
_Shawn
Your misunderstanding of my post is disgusting
QUIT TWISTING MY WORDS!
[QUOTE: "Creative_NRG"]
Let me get this straight. You're asking for our opinion on drafting a contract to legally steal a designers work without paying them under the caveat of an interview process?
[END QUOTE]
No, not at all. Let me get you straight... I'm asking your opinions on what kind of contract could be drafted to assure the artist that no matter what they show us during the interview process that it will remain theirs so they need not worry!
as melange said, this is all HYPOTHETICAL!!!!!!
Can we please try to have a discussion without accusing me of doing crap that I never have and never will do!
You're right NRG, that statement is disgusting, but it's unfortunately probably the truth. Not for my company, but I'm sure there's been some designers out there that have been raped of their ideas by others.
I'm not the bad guy here!
-Shawn
Finally Clear
Now we're finally clear on what you're talking about. You don't techically need a contract as the designer would be protected under copyright law on designs they submitted to you.
But I understand how providing a signed statement from the company could ease the mind of the designer during the interview process that they retain all legal rights to the work they present.
The tricky aspect would be if you decide to hire an artist whose design you'd like to use. Does the company then automatically acquire the rights because they become 'work for hire' or does the artist retain rights outside of employment?
Oh, the unethical bastards are EVERYWHERE and hammering them in the courts is extremely messy. If you talk with a patent and trademark lawyer most won't touch a copyright case unless you have filed the design with the U.S. Patent and Trademark office.
Thanks for clearing this up. and sorry for jumping off the handle. I've been burned in the past and it's a touchy subject.
You say it's hypothetical
You say it's hypothetical and then in the next paragraph (of your original post) you describe your actual work situation. I think that's what's causing the confusion.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
I guess I can see the
I guess I can see the confusion to a certain degree, but I never said that me or the company I work for was using anyone's work. I had to defend myself not for fear of getting fired, but so that I could get my point accross.
We have very low turnover, so it's been a while since I've had to even think about hiring a creative. I realized that asking candidates to do some sort of example work could put them on the defensive, so I thought I'd get some input on the subject.
I guess my first post should have been something a little lighter. :)
-Shawn
The title 'Hypothetical
The title 'Hypothetical Situation' would have been better. :)
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Powerpoint is not a design application
Devils Advocate
I guess trying to play the devil's advocate kinda blew up in my face.
Hypothetical
I thought this entire discussion was 'hypothetical'.
hypothetical
I was trying to present a hypothetical situation by playing the devils advocate.
I got attacked instead of informed.
-Shawn
Shawn, you have to admit
Shawn, you have to admit your original post is confusing at best and insulting at worst to the artistic community. You have to expect some ire as a result since we designers deal with this situation, and variations thereof, all the time. Had you worded the entire post as 'hypothetical' rather than giving a real example from your own life you would have been much better off and received more objective answers.
Defending the situation as you have done 'hypothetically' and implicitly accepting it by not challenging it (fear of getting fired notwithstanding) doesn't endear you to this forum either.
That being said, you've raised an important point. Designers always have to contend with companies who don't understand copyright law and don't understand the creative process.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
Hypothetical pieces
The ENTIRE issue I put forth wasn't completely hypothetical. As others have pointed out, I gave specific examples of asking and being asked to do "Spec" work, so that can't really be hypothetical. The hypothetical part of my post is if an interviewer would hypothetically steal an interviewee's work. THEN what do artists do? How do artists defend their rights if the hypothetical situation of work being stolen were actually a threat? These questions have now been answered to some degree, but I thought I'd try to clear it up a bit.
I see now that most artists look down on doing any sort of spec work for a potential employer. Refusing to do spec work is a little hypocritical though. Couldn't almost ANY preparation that you do for a job interview be considered "spec" work? Do you send the same resume out to every position being applied for? Same cover letter? Same portfolio pieces? I doubt it. (unless you're applying for 100 jobs maybe)...
-Shawn
.thumbnail.jpg "Bullet Energy Drink Final")
Whoa
Not that this isn't common, but I think it sucks to bring people in for job interviews, not hire them, and then use their work. Maybe there is some kind of disclaimer you could have applicants sign, but this would be pretty intimidating if someone really needed a job (and who among us doesn't know what that's like?) and felt they had no choice but to sign.
Why not have people submit designs for something just a little different, but in the same style you'd use? Then if you wanted to adapt someone's design to suit your product, you'd at least have enough of your own work in it to help you sleep at night.
My feeling -- and I'm not insisting that anyone agree with me -- is that if you use someone's work, you should pay them for it; coming up with a legal way to squeak out of that moral responsibility is reprehensible.
Mara
Ditto! ---- Powerpoint is
Ditto!
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Powerpoint is not a design application
I agree with mara completely
The thought of a company flat out stealing work (which make no mistake about it, that IS what you're company would be doing) is reprehensible.
That being said, any idiot that would do free work with the hope of getting hired pretty much deserves to get their work stolen. NO SPEC WORK!
I can totally see testing someone's computer skills by having them re-create an ad, etc... but people have portfolios for a reason. There should be no need for a "design test." If there is, then it's the wrong person for the job.
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Copyright Infringement
That is a blatant copyright violation.
http://www.rightsforartists.com/copyright.html
When an employee agrees to work for a company and paid their designs are owned by the corporation under 'work for hire' guidelines and they may do with them what they please. However, anyone outside of this scope, including freelance designers, retain the copyright to any work they create unless a specific contract is signed stating who legally retains the copyright to that work.
Taking a design which you do not legally own could land you in major hot water. Besides, if you like their design that much why on earth weren't they hired?
Good points, with one
Good points, with one caveat. Even freelance designers can have their work become 'for hire' under the right circumstances. Here in California If they work onsite using client equipment, for one, and/or if the client comprises more than 50% of their total income (can't remember the exact percentage), they then are classified as employees.
I know from personal experience that companies will try to 'hire' freelancers to avoid paying them health benefits, and yet they still claim ownership of the artwork those 'freelancers' create. The onus is on the company to follow the law but it's difficult to enforce unless designers group together for class action lawsuits.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
Read the topic headline
You're all assuming I'm a big bad employer out to screw the next artist out of their work and use it for my own profit.
Please read:
"Is there any type of contract that could be utilized by either employer OR DESIGNER"
If a potential employee walks in with a portfolio full of 'like' items and hands me a contract saying anything that I'm about to see is his/her property under some copyright law, would it hold up? Or do they even need to say it?
I'm a designer too. If I flipped the tables and asked everyone if I could walk in to an interview with the above type of contract that I expected the interviewer to sign, I'd probably get a different response. Something like, "you'd never get a job with an attitude like that" no employer would ever sign it, etc.
Hopefully you're right about the copyright Creative_NRG. Somehow I doubt certain companies would even care what copyright laws exist. What's a starving artist looking for a job going to do to fight it?
-Shawn
http://www.ssarts.com
Any written contract that
Any written contract that clearly states if the applicant's are transferring their rights to their work would be more appropriate than the current situation. Personally, if an employer doesn't trust my work enough to see my style then they aren't worth working for in the first place.
An artists work is his/her own unless created under the employ of someone else. In that case, unless expressly forbidden they have the right to display those works in a portfolio, but not for personal profit. It's assumed that whatever the artist brings in is NOT the property of the company at which they are interviewing; be it the demo work you request of them or not, because that person is not yet employed by your company.
Starving artists don't need a company like yours to waste their time. I know I wouldn't stand for it. Nothing personal.
Also, have your higher ups check out www.nospec.com for more -- they are basically having applicants create spec work! Not good. Have them stop this interviewing practice immediately.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
You're a designer too, but
You're a designer too, but you've lost your ethical compass somewhere along the way. We are reacting to your company's lack of ethics. Hopefully you can see that what your company is doing is wrong.
There are other better jobs out there, believe me. Don't be afraid to take a stand by either speaking your mind or retiring to find a better work environment.
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Powerpoint is not a design application
Word!
Word!
I could be wrong, but as i
I could be wrong, but as i understood the discussion, this was purely hypothetical.
That being said, "hypothetically," if you were to use someone elses work without their approval prior, that would be stealing.
life is great; without it, you'd be dead.
Disgusting
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[QUOTE: "Shawn"]
"Is there any type of contract that could be utilized by either employer OR DESIGNER"
[END QUOTE]
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Let me get this straight. You're asking for our opinion on drafting a contract to legally steal a designers work without paying them under the caveat of an interview process? If you showed such a letter to any self respecting designer they would slide it back, walk out of the interview and smear your company every change they got in the community.
A contract can be written for anything you choose but is that really the reputation you're after?
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[QUOTE: "Shawn"]
Hopefully you're right about the copyright Creative_NRG. Somehow I doubt certain companies would even care what copyright laws exist. What's a starving artist looking for a job going to do to fight it?
[END QUOTE]
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This statement is absolutely disgusting. I'm sure the world is loading with unethical business leaders with little regard for copyright law and intellectual property but it doesn't change the fact that such action is criminal.
P.S. > I noticed the ©2007 copyright on your website but totally disregarded it and took some of your illustrations for a new project I'm working on. It looks great and didn't cost me a thing. That SS logo is sorta cool as well. I think I'll snag that as well. Thanks! What are you going to do about it?
Copyright law is pretty straightforward.
http://www.uspto.gov/main/profiles/copyright.htm